How to Market Regenerative Organic Products: Lessons from Bonterra Organic Estates

0:02 Cool, okay, we've got ourselves recording. And I'll just give it a few minutes so that people can kind of funnel in.

0:34 Joseph, do you want to bring your presentation up just to make sure that we can do that smoothly? We should have done that in our practice session too. Just busy talking. Oh, share screen, the obvious one right there. Yep, okay, here.

1:02 Nice, there we go. How's that? Yeah, that's a great photo. Beautiful. Yeah, you want me to stop the share or just start from there? Well, depends on what you want to do. I'll just do a brief introduction once we get here in just two minutes or so, and then we can roll into your presentation, so whichever you prefer. Okay, well, while I got it up, I'll just leave it and that's probably easier.

1:31 Okay, everybody, we're going to give it like two more minutes and then we'll get started, so if you have any snacks or coffee breaks you need to do, you might as well do that now.

2:51 All right, I think we're going to go ahead and get started, everyone. So this is our sixth episode of our summer webinar series, and I'm super excited to have Joseph Brinkley on today. I met him in Arkansas this summer at a Green America conference, and I had the fortunate opportunity to try some of Bonterra's organic wine there and also take some home, and I still have some, but I forgot to bring the bottle to work today, unfortunately. But yeah, super excited to have this conversation today. We're going to just briefly go over some of the practices that distinguish Bonterra, and then delve into more of a conversation about how to actually market a regenerative organic product.

3:37 So a little introduction for Joseph: he has a degree in horticulture and another in economics, and he has 15 years of experience in the field. Joseph specializes in soil health, farming efficiencies, compost, cover crops, biodynamic farming and viticulture, and regenerative organic farming and responsible business practices. He is instrumental in shaping and driving Bonterra organic estates' advanced policy positions in climate-smart agriculture and business practice, and has advocated to lawmakers for climate action and healthy soils legislation in California and Washington, D.C.

4:20 We are going to go ahead and pass it over to Joseph, and he's going to give us a brief presentation, and then we'll delve more into the conversation side of things. And briefly too, I just want to introduce Davis. Davis is on our sales team here at Grain Cover. Davis and I are both calling in from Bladen right now, and Davis has been doing a bunch of work with our orchard and vineyard customers, and he has been doing some traveling and relation building in California recently, so he's going to have some insight to share with us today.

4:52 Perfect. Well, thank you. Thanks, Sophie. Great to be here. And yeah, give a little overview of what we do, kind of how and why, maybe some of the practices more specifically, and then I look forward to the discussion conversation.

5:11 So Bonterra organic estates, we farm about 900 acres in the North Coast Mendocino County, California, inland Mendocino County, between Hopland and Ukiah, basically. We've been farming organically since 1988, or CCOF certified I should say since 1988. We were the 2016 Wine Enthusiast American Winery of the Year, which was quite exciting for us being an organic producer. That was a big deal. And then last year in 2021, we quite sure were the largest vineyard and winery in the United States to receive the regenerative organic certification.

5:55 And then just one more note of certifications: so the corporation itself is certified B Corp. Monterey and Fetzer brands certified climate neutral. We have the true zero waste, fish-friendly farming. The list goes on and on, but I think this just kind of sums up the dedication to the practices of really trying to make a positive impact and benefit, and certifying those claims.

6:25 So starting out here, as I said, we're excited. So I'm going to put the banner up. 100 percent of our estate vineyards in Mendocino County and the entire winery facility received the silver level of the regenerative organic certification. We started with organic. We were doing biodynamics now for 20-plus years, and this new certification that we saw we really thought it was important to again, for us, backing it up with a third-party audit of that claim for the transparency and the consumer confidence, really, at the end of the day. So we really feel important on the regenerative organic. You know, I'd argue that we've been practicing this for many years now under the pretext really of biodynamic farming.

7:14 So a lot of the soil focus and soil practices are similar. And then of course the benefits right there's benefits here that we all are probably quite familiar with: the soil health, biodiversity, and really the climate resilience.

7:36 So outside of our own farming, in addition to we've been for a few decades now partnering with research institutions or even private companies focused on research. And the most recent one that I'm highlighting here are really around the farming management practices and how that impacts the capacity of the soil to store organic soil organic carbon. And so we did this as a multi-year project taking a bunch of soil samples and plant tissue to see where the shift happens year over year in carbon, whether it's the woody plant tissue or below ground. And here's a quick mention of the difference based on if conventional farming neighbors was the baseline, which is where we started as far as the samples go, then we looked to see the organic and the biodynamic soils and the increase in storage from there as highlighted here. And you can find more here on the soil study.

8:47 Given that we have a marketing kind of bent to the webinar today and the discussion, and I am clearly not a marketer, but I wanted to just bring up here in a couple different areas that it's important how we communicate. So yes we did the research, yes we've published papers or the company that we teamed up with actually did. But here is kind of a nice infographic of how to communicate these things to the consumer and to our partners and such. So you know a lovely little infographic here: conventional, organic, biodynamic, the soil organic carbon store. You know a lovely little easy to read, and then here on the other side a few kind of important points about the study and makes it easy to digest versus reading the whole paper.

9:37 So if we take a step one step removed maybe from our own farming. So Bonterra as a brand we are nearing right around the 600,000 case mark. So we've grown from about 200,000 cases about 10 years ago to 500,000 and approaching six now. And so I guess what I'm trying to say is that 100 percent of our fruit does not come from us for the brand, therefore there's a fair amount of fruit that's sourced from other farmers within California. And so we set a goal that by 2020 at least 90 percent of our of the vineyards we were sourcing from we're certified sustainable for all the sourcing needs and organic or biodynamic for the Bonterra organic line and the needs there. And you know we think this is really important that we work with our sourcing partners really to help educate, help answer questions, to help bring them along the journey as well.

10:37 And then one more step out. We've focused quite a bit in the last three to four years now on policy, and we really need strong policy. We need policy makers to make some smart and strong decisions to support our regenerative farming and regenerative agriculture in general. And in Sacramento state, we're working for policies to support our approach.

11:27 Just real quick, you know I think the one thing to remember is I've called this 'keys to creating healthy systems.' Not only in the business practice but also the farm or vice versa, in the farm and in the business practice we're really talking about healthy systems, creating and maintaining healthy systems. And I see there's basically four components to this: how we build and maintain relationships between the farm and the business. You know, promoting biodiversity—we know that biodiversity brings an incredible amount of strength to the farm and the business. Honoring complexity—clearly when we try to boil down a cause and effect in a reductionist way, it we miss a lot, especially in a living system, something as complex as the farm and how we interact in our local ecosystem. And really we're encouraging resilience. And I think the practices that we'll speak to later are really for encouraging or creating this resilience in the system. This graphic, sorry for the colors it's like Easter colors, this is not my expertise, PowerPoint colors, but anyways what I'm trying to show here is that the farmer basically we stand.

12:46 Inside these overlapping circles right, in the most grandest context you really have climate and weather and patterns and cycles and such. I forgot about the universe outside of this circle, but as we come down now we look at kind of the natural elements that basically you have to work with on the piece of land that you're stewarding.

13:09 And then kind of a smaller circle within that would be the native flora fauna right. There's native trees. I'm from Virginia, I'm looking out, I'm in Virginia at the moment, and versus California right. The native landscape is quite different so how can we manage that, and the farmer of course is there in the center of all this trying to make the right decisions.

13:29 Another way I think to look at it is as a farmer we have the capacity to influence certain areas or the areas of influence have the capacity to impact our farms our production.

13:46 You can now see my screen so hopefully you didn't miss all those. So here are some of the more important areas that I think are really the tillage or the reduction thereof, irrigation depending on of course your region, how we manage compost, biodynamic preparations if that's your trajectory, of course cover crop choices. I certainly can't leave out cover crops to a green cover audience. How we integrate animals into the system and then of course inputs. Inputs I think get a lot of attention and have for quite a while, but they're just one part of the whole puzzle. Inputs being fertilizers and pesticides, herbicides and such.

14:32 So I've said regenerative ag or at least it's been on the slide about six times now. So what is it really? So I figured I'd try to find a couple definitions. This one comes from the Virginia Agriculture Initiative out of California State Chico.

14:47 I think that the important pieces here, really it's obviously an agricultural approach, a system, but typically within the regenerative definition you find something around climate change. How can agriculture become or continue to be a part of the solution? And it's really around carbon, you know, that's often what sets this idea of regenerative agriculture apart.

15:15 Here said another way by this site called the Carbon Underground. Really I think it is a holistic land management. That's one of the things that we see that has in common with say biodynamics and other approaches is that it's really a holistic kind of approach, systems approach, and leveraging the power of photosynthesis.

15:36 Given that amazing power of photosynthesis, I think this could probably take well. You've heard from Dr. Christine Jones so this isn't new. But to me this is magic right here. I'm not a fan of sequestration as far as verbage goes so I prefer re-integration because really not locking it away right. Carbon's incredibly useful. We're just trying to take it from the atmosphere which is not all that beneficial for our time. Return it to the soil which is basically where it came from where it's incredibly beneficial.

16:16 For me it's a mystical process really. I mean it's remarkable that with sunlight and water and air, plants provide the sustenance for the above and the below ground life on earth. It's absolutely remarkable and I think overlooked oftentimes.

16:33 Really obviously the plants are creating the nourishment for the soil life and the above soil life. And for us, really it's utilizing this relationship again with ruminants because ruminants and grasses and forbs have this incredible relationship and dynamic interaction where the cycle is repeated.

16:57 So I'd say basically here some principles. Really, you know, how can we go about integrating animals into the system while minimizing the disturbance and really increasing that photosynthetic capacity? Along with the rest of them, I'm not going to read you all the words on the slide. I can't stand that when somebody reads to me. I can read, so I'm not going to bore you with the words, but really it's how can we utilize these cover crops and animals and that's what I'm going to focus on here in the last few slides.

17:28 So we can get to this discussion. For us, you know, there's kind of four areas here that again the farmer stands in the middle of. I would say it's the animals, the compost, the preparations if that's your trajectory again, and then the cover crops. So here we go. Let's talk about, oops, I forgot another infographic for the marketing.

17:53 How we communicate these practices, there's basically six of them, or six practices or approaches as far as avoiding synthetic inputs as well as one of those being original organic. For me, the cover crops really, this is what I'm looking at. I'm looking for a diversity in form and function. These are kind of the four components, maybe the four buckets.

18:29 Maybe this is early season, you see the vine just broken, but a few weeks prior it's after the sheep have been through a few times. The regrowth, and we're really looking at how do we grow living soil between the carbon, the air and water. That's one of the key elements of cover crops and their interaction with our animal friends.

18:57 Integrating animals, of course here, you know for us it's really about a living fertility. It's the microlife in the rumen or in the metabolic sign, really see that that gives them another sense expression for the farm system as a whole.

19:24 I think real quick I'm going to wrap this up so we can have discussions, not just me looking at you folks here. These are a few kind of practical uses that we found for the sheep: the mowing, you know grazing, but really in place of a tractor, the under vine, the middles. We can use them for leafing, for vegetation management. We have so many dams they're managing the vegetation there.

19:47 So here's clearly where the sheep have been and where they're about to go. You can see the difference there. Here it's just a quick look at a relatively new vineyard, see the grow tubes, no sheep. And they come going through and then within a matter of a handful of days, this is where we're left. You know, so it certainly is well grazed. And they took off a couple grow tubes, but no big deal.

20:18 All right, I think that's all I have for now and maybe we could get to this discussion here.

20:27 Awesome, thank you Joseph. First of all, I really love the way that you described photosynthesis as a mystical and dynamic process. I really do think that having the emphasis on what is actually happening there, I mean we learn about it in like second grade or third grade, kind of have a basic understanding of it our entire lives, but really to stop and appreciate how magnificent of a process that is and we rely upon that process for our survival. So I thought that was cool that you highlighted that.

21:03 Yeah, and one of the things that you said about uniquely integrating ruminants made me think about the first webinar that we had in this series with Dr. Stephen van Bleet, where he talked about how ruminants have the capacity because they have a rumen to eat grass, and then we as human beings have the capacity to intake nutrients from grass that we wouldn't be able to digest on our own through that process. And so I think again that's just another complexity and nuance to the entire thing that is just mind-blowing for me.

21:40 Okay, so you said that 100 percent of the vineyards are ROCK certified out of the vineyards that you source grapes from. What was that process like and can you just kind of walk us through the expansion and how you went about trying to source those grapes and what the certification process was like? Did you find those vineyards that were already certified or did you work with vineyards to get them certified?

22:07 Right, so to clarify, the ROCK certification, the regenerative organic, is 100 percent of the estate in the vineyard world. Estate would mean just what we're farming, okay, so 100 percent of the essentially internal vineyards are ROCK certified. Then everything that we're sourcing outside of what we're growing for Bonterra is organic certified, not necessarily ROCK though. So yeah, just to clarify, 100 percent is organic and what we've done thus far, and there's others coming on into the program and interested and we hope to continue to be a resource to help others continue with that. But I just want to clarify that I'm happy to talk through the process of ROCK, but yeah, I don't want to get the indication here that we've like helped to convert everyone to ROCK all of a sudden.

22:59 But for us, you know, to attain the ROCK certification, really because our baseline was already, you know, about five of our ranches were already certified by biodynamic, everything's organic, and the ones that weren't certified by biodynamic already, we utilized sheep. We've already integrated animals. So really the, based on equivalencies and such, having the organic is a necessity for ROCK and then the biodynamic gives you the animal integration piece which is a requirement. So really it became about the social.

23:28 The social pillar within Rock, which is one of the things that sets the Rock cert apart. The certification through the ROA. Really it was just about making sure, and because we're a B Corp, those things were already taken care of. We just had to then prove and show the auditor and inspector through the reports such that we were doing all the things that were required. So for us, where we started from, it was a relatively painless move to that next step.

24:08 I think it would really depend on your starting point though. You know, if you weren't already organic or you weren't already integrating animals, there's some more things to do. But for us it's pretty easy. Definitely. Can you elaborate just for establishing a baseline here? Organic certification is a prerequisite for Rock. What is the main differentiation between organic viticulture and regenerative organic viticulture?

24:39 Yeah, so again, starting with the baseline being a certified organic operation, essentially the organic through the NOP is asking for soil management practices that increase the health, increase the organic matter, increase the resilience of the system already. So as a baseline, those I think they both have that in common. We're really looking crop rotation, using non-synthetic inputs and such. I think they're aligned there. What I think Rock has done is codify or give a more solid definition of regenerative, right? Because we see it everywhere. Regenerative is like the new sustainable. Everybody's regenerative, like everybody's sustainable. So in some ways, kind of define it with some definite parameters that can be verified.

25:42 Verified parameters. One is integrating animals. The organic system doesn't require that an integration of the animals. And then the other piece is ensuring that all labor is paid a living wage, not a minimum wage but a living wage as defined by Harvard. And also that there's a grievance process so if someone has an issue with their employer or manager, whomever it is, they can feel safe and secure to bring that up without feeling any kind of fear of repercussion. And so those, we've all read the horror stories in the news right, that often farm workers and farm laborers don't have these protections. So I think it's really to codify that piece as well, seeing that the way we're treating our land, we should also be treating our animals and our people in this same way of respect.

26:35 Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and I think I just want to establish these baselines because these certifications exist so that we can convey this story to the consumer. And I think we're definitely living in an age where we have access to the internet, which is a huge luxury, and the average consumer, if they so desire, they can in most cases actually have an idea of what type of food that they're sourcing, where it's coming from, what type of operation, if they choose to do so. And in a lot of situations, which I'm getting ahead of myself into the next part of this conversation, but in a lot of situations the consumer has to pay more for that luxury. And with Bonterra it's not necessarily the case. Your wine does have tiers but you do have wine that's a very approachable price point, and that's something that I'm really fascinated about. We'll move into that in a little bit but I just thought I'd segue myself.

27:31 Davis, do you have any questions or comments after the presentation?

27:37 Yeah, thanks for the presentation. So wonderful. I really like the point about honoring complexity. I think that takes humility. I think that means reverence, and I just appreciate those aspects of being a producer or a grower. It's a little bit more reflective and a little bit more of putting ourselves in our right place, and I really have a lot of respect for that. I was curious, just while we're wrapping up the part of the different certifications, you guys mentioned on your website that you're America's number one organic winery, and I think that's uncontested with the different items that you mentioned there. Is there one in particular that you go off of to measure that you are number one? Is that a size? Tell me a little bit more about how you measure.

28:37 Right, yeah, that's a great question. I appreciate you pulled something that I don't have a solid metric on. Yeah, you know, I think getting the award right, being awarded by Wine Enthusiasts, which is probably the most renowned wine industry publication, for sure definitely set us up there. Another piece, you know, you look at the brand production, we're about 500,000 cases, five to six I should say. So the volume certainly would be another parameter, and then when we look, you know, our data as far as IRI Numerator type data, what are shoppers purchasing, you know, we continue to see we're outpacing the category, whether it's the price point category, whether it's the varietal category, wherever it is. So I think in those ways, it's like the fire that the consumer feels basically for Bonterra, you know. So if it certainly wasn't like the most acreage, I think all those components being just like the go-to, you know, we have such a great trajectory and sales, really beyond all these other kind of accolades.

29:55 Absolutely. Yeah, you mentioned your consumers, and as we transition now into the second part of the conversation, where are your customers getting Bonterra wines? Is it mostly retail in the grocery or liquor store, or is it mostly in restaurants? So where are your customers getting Bonterra wines primarily?

30:16 Yeah, that's good. We really, I'd say the major channel would be the retail channel. We're widely distributed throughout the US, even international. So any of your larger grocery store chains and such, any of the drug stores inside of CVS, Walmart or Walgreens, whomever, you know, I don't want to give too many names, but basically the retail channel is huge, and the on-premise is another big component. So that would be if you go to say a restaurant or hotel and consume on site, the on-premise channel then would be the second. And then we certainly have some online presence. There's certainly some online sale, but I'd say the retail channel mostly. And especially since the pandemic, you know, the on-premise certainly suffered as restaurants and other places were shut down. So that is making a comeback. But really, I'd say the retail channel is number one.

31:16 Okay, and just to take a step back briefly, you talked about the management and importance of native flora and fauna. Can you give us an example of how you are creating space for those native flora and fauna on the vineyard and what that looks like?

31:37 Yeah, for sure. So I'll go with the second example first. McNab, which is one of our ranches, kind of midway up the 101, it's about 350 acres is the land holding and 146 is planted. So there's a huge amount there that is not planted to vineyards. So the wildlands are kept. The trees and the shrubs and such, you know, there's some degree of cleaning up that takes place in those areas, but they're left basically to be wild. This photo that's my backdrop, this is a top of Butler, another one of our ranches. This one we own 750 acres, 86 of which is planted. So you know, there's some huge out of the 900 that I said was under vine, we own about 2,500 acres. So of the total, there's a lot of the outskirts being left and not developed into vineyard. And then even within the vineyard, there's some footprints of riparian zones being managed and cared for, cleaned up and such, or some other insectary type hedgerows and things that are planted as well.

33:00 Yeah, I would imagine that being an organic vineyard, having those buffers that are also doubling as native habitat would be beneficial to the integrity of the wine. And the fact that you are organic, and perhaps some of these branches are surrounded by perhaps conventional or non-organic agriculture.

33:21 Yeah, it's a little different in Mendocino and in Napa. I started out in Napa and Hawaiian World, and you're kind of yeah shoulder to shoulder, if you will, with neighbors, often conventionally farmed neighbors. And in Mendocino, most of our neighbors are the wildlands, what's in forests and such. So that buffer strip is a little less important, just per the kind of the development of the county. It's a bit more wild.

33:53 Okay, well, now since we've already gotten ahead of ourselves, I think that we'll kind of go through the marketing portion of this discussion.

34:03 Bonterra has an amazing commercial which I didn't want to risk filming or broadcasting it today because of internet, but it's called 'Taste like Saving the Planet' and it's almost kind of a parody but at the same time has a lot of truth in it. It's like a minute and 30 seconds and it's on YouTube so anyone who wants to watch it can go and watch it, but it's basically people comparing sustainability, regenerative, organic practices to notes of the wine that they can taste it in the wine, which I think is a great portrayal of it.

34:41 I mean it's almost like a parody because it's like, okay, we're—these words are becoming such buzz words and maybe people don't even necessarily know the meaning behind them if they're not delving into it and spending a lot of time researching. But at the same time they do represent a greater practice that has been evolving and gaining more and more momentum over time. So yeah, I'm just kind of interested in that conversation.

35:13 So we have great friends from Regenerate Nebraska. They have a farm up in Oakland, Nebraska and they found a bottle of Bonterra wine at a Fill and Chill out there. And there's, that's a town of like maybe a thousand people and it's super rural. It's like an hour and a half away from the nearest large town and they found organic wine there. And so we're just kind of amazed at how you can do that because Nebraska, especially in these more rural areas, we're not used to having those options. I mean, we're a lot of us are living in food deserts and that's kind of the irony of it all is that this is agricultural lands and a lot of people are farming out here but we don't have access to healthy, nutrient-dense food. And so I'm really intrigued at how Bonterra is able to reach such a wide and diverse group of people and how you're able to achieve that approachable price point. So can you just kind of give us a bit of an overview on how Bonterra has done that and the marketing strategy and what sets that strategy apart from other people selling wine?

36:21 Sure, yeah. That's a lot. Let me see if I miss any, just come back to it, okay. So first, the commercial, yeah, I think it's pretty hilarious. It was really trying to poke some fun at kind of the snobbiness, often times, of wine. And you know, show that there's a different purpose there can be to the wine than whatever the notes you get off of the aroma and such.

36:52 So really important, how we—so as far as the, you know, I think that's amazing that Fill and Chill has Bonterra. So yeah, props to Fill and Chill and the distributor and whoever the sales person is. I got that in there. I appreciate that.

37:06 So it is what we find is that we have positioned ourselves not necessarily to be in the organic aisle of any adult beverage retailer. So about 10 or so years ago we tried to shift where we're set up. So often times it's like the dusty corner over there where the organic wine is or whatever and not very many people frequent that. So what our approach has been: if you focus on quality and consistency and an incredible, like you said, approachable price point, then you know, we'd rather be in the conventional set—put us in a conventional spot so that people, whether you care that it's organic or not, you buy it because it's good and it's great price point. And every time you pick up the bottle you know it's going to be good and a great price point. So that kind of shifts, you know, there's a bit of, some people are really interested in organic, some people aren't, and some people have been burned by some maybe less than optimal organic wines in the past. There's almost like a trade-off. It was like, you can have a good wine or you can have an organic wine and you're doing something good for the planet but it might not taste great, it might be too expensive. You know, and we don't feel that there's any need for that trade-off. We can produce organic grapes, organically grown grapes, made with organic wines with an amazing price point and great quality.

38:41 And a lot of that has to do with the operations, really, as far as that price point. As I said, I started in my wine world and in Napa and it was a bit different. You know, when you're when you're growing fruit for a 100 to 500 dollar bottle of wine, you know, your farming practices can be a bit different. You can do things a little differently. When I got to Mendocino, it's really about an incredible amount of efficiency. You know, how can we really efficiently do this organically? And I think that's one of the things that drew me to Bonterra, to come to Organa—sorry, to come to Monterey to work, was that you know, I didn't really agree that only if you can afford two for a 500 dollar bottle of wine did you get to have

44:49 Do you have any other specific examples where you've been able to design the day-to-day work and the actual physical design of the farm for maximum efficiency because I think that I mean obviously a lot of farms have existed for a long time and design doesn't play a huge role in a lot of agricultural practices so I'm intrigued to see if you have any more insight on that.

45:16 Yeah, there's a few. Just overall, often the timing is so critical. I think all farmers would agree timing is critical. We find it maybe even more so in organic on the regenerative side because some of the materials right that you're going to use if you have a pest or disease issue, we don't have the same, so we basically are on the prevention side. We really need to prevent it first. But I think if we can time some of our passes, a tucking pass, a wire move, then we can eliminate one or two other passes later. If we can time a leafing pass just right, then we don't have to make two or three passes. So a lot of the hand labor is a huge cost for all of us, I would say, and so if we can find ways to time it and do it in such an approach that we can do it once instead of twice or once instead of three times, it's a huge savings.

46:12 Another piece for me, I can't stand these little rows of like three, four, or five vines or something that drives me absolutely crazy. We're farming nearly a thousand acres. We do not, I do not have a row with less than fifteen or twenty vines. So that's one thing that as I've replanted, I would go through it even if I wasn't replanting, start pulling things out. I'm not driving a tractor all the way up and down for five vines, right? So there's like some bigger kind of shifts and then some really smaller shifts too because at the end of the day those five vines are not worth the little bit of fruit that they're gonna give you. They're on the end already, they're gonna get missed. That's where the things usually attack and you're still running a fair amount of labor and machine hours on something that doesn't really give you that return.

47:03 So I think in the design of the farm itself, as you look at how you orient your rows is another great example. So the longer runs you can make, you know, so there's ways to just design the layout of the vineyard, whether it's row orientation, row length, cross arm spacing, how you do your wires, whether movable or adjustable or permanent. I mean there's like so many. I think each area, each task needs to kind of be understood in its purpose and then like what comes before and what comes after to see if there's some way that things can be modified to eliminate some passes or to make things more efficient.

47:50 So next question: how has consumer behavior, and obviously it's changed a lot, but how has it changed since the pandemic and how has Bonterra's marketing strategy adjusted? And you already spoke a little bit about on-premise and off-premise, but I was curious if there's anything more to that.

48:14 Yeah, you know, one of the wonderful things I'd say about our industry, the wine industry or even adult beverage, is that when things are good people drink to celebrate and things are bad they drink to commiserate, you know? So like you're somebody's to be buying it for one reason or another. But I do think one of the areas there is that consumers clearly went out less, right? So we already spoke to that, how the on-premise channel really shifted considerably. A lot of that shifted to the off-premise, so a lot of you know, instead of going out say a night or two a week or whatever, then people were just buying more wine at home, so that certainly increased.

49:19 The other piece I think there was maybe a greater awareness and consciousness of what we're putting in our bodies, and so though it's always kind of, well, maybe not always but for a while now, there's been like an interest in say organic baby food, often organic dairy, organic produce. Wine has this like amazing place in human consciousness where it's like amazingly romantic and just grapes, right? And that unfortunately is not the case. So I think people started to understand that like there's a lot that goes into conventional wine in the farming of it and in the creation of it. So those inputs, those additives and such, maybe people became more aware, more conscious of wanting to reduce or eliminate. And I think as far as we go, I, you know, one of the kind of the foundations of us is this purpose and this integrity and this like transparency. So I'm not sure that we really did a whole lot different other than just kind of.

50:22 Sticking to the foundation of being transparent and open, you know that's why we have like a litany of certifications right. We claim them and then we have the certification to back it up that's coming from a third party, an outside audit, not us. So for us really I think it was more about people coming around to appreciating more and more these kind of stances and these ways that we are pretty open about what we do and how we do it. So I think that's becoming more and more acknowledged and more appreciated.

51:00 And to kind of segue off of that, in your opinion what do you think is going to continue to happen in the regenerative organic space as time goes on and if the momentum that you just spoke of continues to build?

51:19 Yeah, you know, hopefully the marketplace is such that farmers feel confident and secure, however we, any of us could feel secure. I guess right to really increase this type of management. I think when the market demands or the market shows that it's open and willing to pay for things, then producers shift. And so I think we kind of need that shift coming from multiple, maybe you know multiple levers if you will pulling on that shift. And so I think as consumers understand and demand it, as producers see that there's a lot of benefit with reducing inputs, with investing in the soil in the long term, that's kind of our long-term account really is our own resource and how do we steward the land and the resource for the long term more than just kind of a short-term gain. I think which has maybe been a bit of the approach in the last few decades or more now. So I think we're seeing that the way we've been operating doesn't necessarily work as far as how we treat our people and our land and such. We really need to make a change. So I think as that changes it just kind of perpetuates itself right. More products become available, more producers do it, more research, more understanding, more knowledge comes about about how we can do it well and efficiently.

53:06 Okay, with that, unless Davis do you have any more comments? I think I'm going to move into Q&A. I do have just one more. I want the audience questions but I do have one question that I want to ask about your work in advocacy. First off, thank you as other partakers in regenerative agriculture. We really appreciate your advocacy. I'm just curious to hear a little bit more about your work there. What things in particular are you trying to advocate for and then how we can think about as a body of farmers, a collective body, and how we each have our roles in accomplishing a goal. One of yours seems to be advocacy and how can we think about how to work together as that body of farmers, all call it, and what our respective roles might be?

54:00 Right, yeah, that's great. It's new to me. I mean the last few years now, but this is not my background in advocacy, political science, any of these things, government relations. So it's a lot of learning. We've been working with SERIES which is an incredible organization the last few years. So a lot of this policy work and a lot of the advocacy days are coordinated by SERIES. And so in this way there's many businesses that are really seeking to get the support of policy makers because we've all done as much as we possibly can, you know, in many ways maybe there's more to be done but a lot. And so really as we can come together with kind of common goals, you know, so maybe farm bills a common goal or advocating for some of the healthy soils programming or these climate smart agriculture programs and such, you know, technical assistance. Oftentimes our technical assistance providers may not be all that well versed in organic, biodynamic, regenerative type practices. You know, so it's like really pushing on all these different areas. And collectively I think that's a really great point that you make is that collectively I think the voice is certainly stronger and policymakers respond. They believe it or not, they want to hear from you. They want to hear from constituents. They want to hear from business. I think we're all trying to do the best we can with what we know, you know, so whatever realm we're working in. So really I think kind of joining some of these orgs. We're also a part of the Organic Trade Association, so a trade association. For us specifically focused on organic. But you know, as we come together and maybe find kind of the common ground and the areas.

55:49 We can align on. I'm sure we have differences, but if we all right, at some point we all want to save farms and farmlands and farmers and have a future of farming in the nation. Like, we, this is not something we want to export. An economics professor my senior year of economics basically told me the United States should not be producing food anymore. They should be like doing higher, more important things. That blew my mind. I was like, are you kidding me? That, right, like that's insane to think. But you know, based on his like, I don't know, arithmetic or whatever, but really I think we we know that the future of our nation depends on that. That's the foundation, our soil, right, in our farms and having a longevity of farmers and farming communities and children wanting to take on the farm, not being like peace, I'm out, I'm going to the city, you know? Like that, and that's not great for the long term. I mean, everyone has the right to their individual choice of course, but wouldn't it be great if there was a lot more incentive to a good life in farming?

56:55 So I think that's kind of where I don't know if I'd skirted the question or not, but I think that's where we kind of want to come together.

57:03 Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I mean, Davis and I are in one of the most rural places that you can get, and this is where Green Cover is based. So there's actually a ton of opportunity here. And I'm a young person in agriculture, and I don't know many others like me, and I do think that there is tons of opportunity. And like you said, it's we just need to band together to create more opportunities for people to have a good living and agriculture. And then we will be able to grow more of our own food and more nutrient-dense food, hopefully.

57:38 So let's go into questions here. I thought this question was interesting. This person is asking if you find that wildlife goes after the grapes at a higher rate than perhaps conventionally grown because of the lack of synthetic inputs, which I think is a great question. And I have zero research I can give you a couple anecdotes though.

58:03 So we find a lot, a fair amount of grape farmers have some bird issues. Birds create a good amount of damage, especially starlings. They'll come and they'll just start pecking pecking pecking. For us, it's rarely ever an issue or maybe never an issue. I've never, not in medicine, so I think a lot of the wildlands kind of help, you know? There's hawks and there's eagles and there's falcons and such. So I think that natural diversity, again, like because it's not just like a huge block of a monoculture of grapes, right? So that is one kind of anecdote that I've noticed that we don't really have the same bird pressure.

58:45 And then the bear. So we have a bear, well, a family or families of bear up here at this Butler Ranch that this photo, my backdrop. And every year nearly without fail the bears go after the Muvedra. The Muvedra is in this little block way down outside of nowhere, hard to get to. And for whatever reason you see Prince everywhere. Like it's not like the bear doesn't just go all over the ranch. You see their tracks all over, but every year the bear loves them Avedra. So I don't know if it's like has anything to do with like conventional neighbors or not, but I can tell you that that bear is like really into their own type lens and loves Muvetro more than any other fruit we grow.

59:26 It's a super great question. I really have zero research to back up if you know what the conventional guys are, excuse me folks, are dealing with. But it's a good question.

59:38 What I mean, you hear a lot about how insects will attack lower bricks plants. And so I would think that if you're a regenerative operation that's focusing on soil health, your fruit would be higher bricks and then you would have more insect resiliency or I mean no issues at all. Is that the case or have you seen anything like that?

1:00:02 Yeah, so you know, really as far as insect issues, I mean I'd say first off we're in Northern California so it's kind of unfair. I mean it's like the most perfect climate for growing wine grapes, really, you know? So the pressures already are pretty minimal. As far as insects go, the only one we really have an issue with is an imported, you know, a non-native, non-local insect. This little leaf hopper that for some reason I get the blame for it's called the Virginia creeper leaf hopper. So I guess my Virginia roots have implicated me in that. But for the most part, really, I think it's the kind of the natural system of you know, having a diversity of crop on the land, having cover crops, having riparian zones, having these insectary rose and such that really help to mitigate, kind of balance. It's not like we don't have any insects. We want insects. We've got a ton of insects, right?

1:00:53 But as far as from an IPM perspective, like the economic threshold, it really isn't there. It doesn't hardly ever warrant a spray except for maybe this one leaf hopper. And that leaf hopper is, I think, like, you know, I don't know if you ever experienced like the person in the dorm that never got out when they were in high school, and next thing you know they're going crazy. It's almost like that little leaf hopper. So other than that, there's a really fair balance. I'd say that it's not to the damaging of crop level as far as insects go.

1:01:36 That's fortunate for you. So I think your audio kind of broke up a bit during your presentation when you were talking about cover crops. This person is asking if you're planting them in the rows under the vines.

1:01:51 Yeah, that's a good question. The majority of our cover crop is seeded with a drill. So it'd be a seed drill, you know, not technically a drill, but you know what I'm saying, right? So it's really just within the middles. Things fall out, things reseed. A lot of the clovers will self-seed and end up under the middle, but we don't really do very rarely any kind of broadcast seating. So basically it's the drill, and the drill just goes down the middle of the row.

1:02:26 So this question is kind of a hard question. I don't know if you'll be able to answer it, but they're asking your opinion. So they're citing that you were talking about how critical government policy reform is in order to drive regenerative agriculture to the next level. They're asking how is that playing out, and then the secondary question is can we rely on government to drive this, or do we need to focus on educating the consumer who vote with the dollars that they spend?

1:02:56 Yeah, that's a great question, a couple great points. For many years, one of the greatest lessons I'd say from economics was a professor told us you vote with your dollar every time you make a purchase. You're voting for that producer, that essentially distributor, wholesaler, retailer, the whole chain, right? You're saying yes, we want more of this. So I and that is usually what I would tell people, and even still do, right? There's a way to make a difference as a consumer: you buy the things that you want to see continuing. So I totally agree with that, and I do think the consumer education awareness is huge. I think that's a really important part, which is why I do these things and I'm on the road and I'm trying to talk, you know, be out there for folks to better understand. And there's a lot of folks that, I mean, you guys are hosting these webinars and such.

1:03:51 So I'd say that I wouldn't necessarily put it in a dichotomous position. I don't know that I would polarize the two in that way, that it's like this or that. I think that at this point in time, it's got to be all of it. I don't think it can be one or the other right now. I think that we've come to a place where it has to be all the above as far as policy can help drive change and consumers can help drive change, and I believe we need them both.

1:04:29 And then as far as how's it going, you know, it's like the growth of an oak tree or something, right? Day by day you barely notice it, but you know 10 years later you're like, oh, that tree actually grew. So I think that's the nature of it, right? There's been some big wins I would say, especially recently. You know, there's been some money going towards some things that we feel are worthwhile as far as organic agriculture and technical assistance and transitions and such. So you know, I certainly understand that there's some hesitancy around government interactions and such, and I can understand that. I do think that it is an important part though, really, because there's going to be government support for something, right? So in my mind that's it. I don't think that government is going to solve all the problems or maybe even many, but if there's going to be money put towards something, let's get a portion of that money put towards regenerative agriculture.

1:05:39 Okay, I think we're going to wrap things up because we're already five minutes over. Davis, do you have any closing thoughts, or Joseph, anything else that you'd like to share?

1:05:48 I don't have anything else. Joseph, really appreciate everything that you shared both in the presentation and the answers. Very thoughtful and thought-provoking for me.

1:06:01 Yeah, I don't have a lot more to add. I could, but we're out of time. So let me appreciate the invite here. It's been great talking to both of you. And yeah, feel free to reach out. You know, things come up, questions or ideas, I'm happy to continue discussing. So thanks a lot for having me.

1:06:19 Yeah, thanks Joseph. Thanks for taking the time and thanks for giving us a great presentation.

1:06:23 All right, guys, next week we're going to have Dale Strickler come on to talk about building drought resilience. So go to our webinars page to get registered for that, and then we will see you next week.

1:06:34 All right, thank you guys. Bye.