Management Intensive Grazing: Building Soil While Growing More Pasture

0:00 Welcome everybody to our soil changing farmers webinar series. I'm Jonathan Gooding and I've got just a few ground rules before I turn it over to Jake. So first of all, everybody, all of the attendees, all your video is off and you're all muted. But if you have questions we'd love to hear your questions. Please use the Q&A panel. There's an icon with two speech bubbles, that's the Q&A panel, so you can go in there and ask questions as we go at any time.

0:37 If you do want to send a message to the panelist that isn't a question, you can use the chat feature to send that message, but if you got a question please put it in the Q&A panel so that we can keep all of those in the same place. And then one more thing: if you're comfortable with it, when you ask a question if you can tell us where you're from, we'd love to hear that as well.

1:01 I'm going to turn it over to Jake here. Jake Burns is one of the sales representatives, actually leads the sales team here at Green Cover. And Jake's going to introduce our guest.

1:17 Yes, thanks Jonathan. I'm happy to be here and just really grateful for our guest today, filling in for Davis who hosted our last webinar. He's kind of our primary post host for this webinar series, but he's out right now at the hospital with his wife, hopefully having a baby or has already had the baby. So thoughts and prayers to Davis, and we'll have a good conversation here today.

1:43 Ronnie, I'll probably not do your intro complete justice, but I'll give it a shot with just a couple observations I've taken so far and then let you get into kind of sharing your journey of soil health, regenerative ag, and everything. But yeah, it's been a pleasure just kind of getting to know you, and we had a phone call yesterday and just chatting with you today too.

2:06 Ronnie has been taking over the family operation in 2009, I believe, and then in 2014 started with some cover crops and getting more into the soil health principles and things like that. And then 2019 was, I believe, a winner of the Environmental Stewardship Award. Is that what you said?

2:35 And yeah, lots in between there with some of the things that he'll share. One of the things just briefly going over his talk and seeing some of the things was just the diversity that he'll touch on, and kind of speaks to the diversity of our different webinar series too. Last week we had the Okes from California, and now we'll go to Ronnie in Virginia. So just kind of a good broad spectrum of different people doing soil health principles and just really well-done agriculture.

3:07 I guess with that, we'll let Ronnie go, and yeah, let him share. And I think he's just a great example and leader in soil health and regenerative ag. So take it away, Ronnie.

3:20 Thank you, Jake, and hello. My name is Ronnie Knuckles. I'm glad to have an opportunity to share with you today, and certainly would like to thank Green Cover Seed for making this an option. It's a little unusual talking to a computer screen, but we'll see what we can do with it. But I'd like to kind of start with the history of the farm.

3:44 Overhome Farm is in Goochland County, Virginia. We're located in Goochland County, about 20 miles west of Richmond, Virginia, which is the state capital. We're about a mile north of the James River, and as you can see from this photo, we are a very rolling topography. We're in the Mid-Atlantic, we're blessed with an abundant water supply, and we have good shade cover for the cattle. So all in all, it's a pretty good place to be if you want to raise cattle.

4:23 My wife Charlie and I have lived at Overhome for 48 years, and we manage a commercial calf operation on the farm and have enjoyed doing that most of my adult life. I was in a construction business, excavation and grading, so I spent most of my time destroying soil structure. The last 14 years, I've had to do a 180 and learn how to protect it and enhance it.

4:53 Kind of seen it in both spectrums. We've lived there 48 but my family has been at the farm since 1876 and very fortunate to have some of the old photographs. I know this was taken prior to 1910. The farm, even though my family's been there since 1876, was really started in the early 1700s. Two families preceded ours on the property. They raised tobacco, which was King in Virginia during that time, until the soil fertility just played out. What they did in that time when it got where it wasn't productive, they moved on to new location. The first couple of generations of my family there just made their home there. There was no commercial farming going on. The land was given a long time to recover and nature will take care of itself and heal a lot of ills if you give it enough time, and that's what took place here.

5:56 Grandfather took over the farm when his parents passed away. He timbered the property around 1950 and he soon after that went into an excavation and grading company that he managed, and as time permitted they brought equipment back to the farm and cleared up some of the land that was timbered and established grass to kind of keep it stabilized. That was a slow process. It took several years in the process to complete it.

6:30 My father, when we moved to the farm—now this is my mother's family's farm—so my father gave up, left his family farm and came to our home. When he came, he brought commercial calf herd to put on the property. To my knowledge, this was the first time a cattle herd had been on the farm. He gradually built that over the years over the next 40 plus years. That herd of 30 grew to about 90. He was able to graze about 300 acres at that time.

7:08 I'm going to show some slides and I don't want to be negative with this, but I don't just don't have the pictures to show the good times. But I want to show a little bit of his management. This field we will see again and again through this presentation. This is right beside our house and this field was double cropped for at least 45 years between corn silage and barley and clover for hay. He started out conventionally plowing, eventually went to chisel plowing so he could rip it deep, and then gradually towards the end, they got to a drill and a disc combination to get these different crops planted.

7:52 Original infrastructure: the perimeter fencing was barbed wire on cedar post and trees was put in in the 60s. So you can imagine what this starts to look like come 2005 and moving forward. We had a lot of cattle leave the reservation during that time. It wasn't unusual to get a call anytime day or night and have a neighbor say, 'Hey, you got cattle in my garden.' So really was getting to be a point that something major needed to happen.

8:26 Just to kind of highlight, this was a very open grazing system. There were three large pastures during this time, and when things got dry or in the winter time, the gates would be open and cattle could be anywhere over 300 acres. Because of the size of the calves, we're a fall calving herd. We always have been. I'm assuming this is late October, early November, so you can see not a lot to choose from as far as forage there. The pond behind the cow was a water source. They had free access to that and they pretty much destroyed the shoreline all the way around.

9:10 This shot, same field that he was harvesting corn in earlier. So I know this is before the first week in September because it was always cut in time for dove season. He was an avid hunter, loved to shoot doves, so I can time this picture based on that. Two things: it's a good corn crop, so I know we've had some pretty good rain that season. The fence kind of shows the infrastructure that was available, and then in this lower right corner, you look at what a pasture is in early September and you kind of wonder why, you know, what caused this pasture to be that weak.

9:55 This last shot showed that same field and I really showed it to show you the weak area that you still see a lot of dirt through. The difference between that pasture from side to side, and I know this was a dry fall because I—

10:14 Can tell by the other pastures and the way the yard looked at the time but we'll like I say this thing's going to keep coming back to haunt us throughout this presentation. We kind of park it here a little bit and I certainly didn't generate this list all at once it developed over time as I got into things and I had helped my brother and I had helped their father with the cattle for probably close to 40 years he passed away suddenly at the end of 2008. And it took his passing for me to realize I knew nothing about managing cattle or managing pastures. I'd been a helper and when you're a helper it's very easy to find problems not so easy to find solutions.

11:01 So that first year was very stressful for me and the cattle and I realized at that point if I was going to continue to raise cattle I had to get things in my terms that I could deal with and one of the first steps was I had to decide what were my goals what do I want to achieve with this operation. And two main points came up: one I wanted the farm to look good I wanted it to be a kind of place when you drove in you could appreciate that it was maintained, it was a nice piece of property and it needed to be shown that way. And the second I needed to manage the cattle instead of having them manage me.

11:44 So to come up with answers I knew I didn't have them I started reaching out to different farm organizations and talking to staff at these different organizations and visiting other farms that looked like they had a better handle on what they were doing than where I was. It is a lot of great resources out there for producers in Virginia. I know we're very blessed here and I assume you are in your neighborhood too but I think too often we overlook these resources and just try to wing it on our own and you don't really have to do that.

12:15 It didn't take long to realize that the foundation for whatever you want to do starts with soil health and these main categories that are listed below will kind of look at some examples of how I've used those. And you know my case is not a pure soil health lesson it's adapted to producing a cattle herd and productive cattle herd so I've had to alter and modify a few of these but for the most part I've seen the advantages of honoring these and trying to include them in my plans.

12:53 My first step at over home was in infrastructure. I had next to none. So I realized before I could start improving soil quality I had to have the situation that I could create that and that meant a lot of new fencing and water sources. Started with Monacan Soil and Water District. This is air district for Goochland and Powhatan County. Keith Burgess is air director there, 25 plus years experience and was a big asset in coming up with how to set this up.

13:33 We did a stream exclusion practice to start off with and that means we put a 35 foot buffer around all the creeks, the ponds and any minor drainage ways. Cattle no longer have access to freestanding water. I used the high tensile electric which I liked a lot, never been exposed to it but really a nice product to work with. They also recommended to promote rotational grazing to improve the quality of my stand. We do division fencing I had none of that. This whole screen would have been one pasture before this project. Now the cattle viewed me not as an enemy but as a friend because I opened the gate to give them a clean pasture. Big impact on the mentality of the herd and being able to manage and handle them in a different way.

14:25 All right, we've taken the water source away so we've got to replace it. We used existing pond we pumped water to these holding tanks which gave us about 4500 gallons of water at any one time. From this high location we can gravity feed to the water tanks. These tanks really work great in Mid-Atlantic they don't freeze during the winter and they keep the water cool in the summer. The blue balls are indicator you have water pressure so you don't have to physically inspect one to make sure they're working. If you see blue you've got water.

15:04 Moving rotating cattle I think it helps gentling them. If they're working with them on a daily or weekly basis they get familiar with them but my handling facility for vaccines and whatever sorting we do is at the other.

15:22 End of the farm this lane creates a very easy way for me to move cattle by myself and you just see how calm and relaxed they are in transit. The slide I'm really trying to show a number of things. Diversity is one of those key components of soil health but I apply that in a lot of different directions. I think size of pastures is key to a cattle operation. You don't, one size doesn't fit all and sometimes you want to sort and put a smaller group together for one reason or another. Sometimes you want a larger group but this picture also shows diversity of vegetation and different pastures that different. You need to feed cattle 365 days a year. If your whole farm looks the same at any one time then sometimes of a year you're going to have more than you need, other times you're not going to have enough. So I basically have tried to come up with a scheme that I have some pastures that are coming on, I want some that are there ready to graze and I've got some that are kind of coming off so that rotation continues but you try to fill that gap to get as close as you can to year round grazing.

16:41 This has nothing to do with soil health but it's also, it has a lot to do with the Chesapeake Bay and why this practice is available and why the state is willing to pay 75% of installed cost to put the fences up and provide a new water source but just banks have healed up almost immediately and you see how clear the water is. This shot wouldn't be possible if the cattle were in the creeks and this is memories that are being built and will last a lifetime and only possible because the cattle no longer control the landscape.

17:20 All right, diversity again and I title this diversity among your pastures but I think it also mean diversity within your pastures. We had a joint field day in 2015. Virginia Forge Grassland Council, NRCS, Virginia Cooperative Extension and Monin joint ventured this and it was really the beginning of my travel through the annuals for grazing. This particular field that we've been looking at a lot, we split that in zones. We went to different seed providers and we asked them to provide us with a mix of their recommendation. We didn't tell them what to give us but the criteria was it needed to provide grazing for late fall, early spring and that same mix had to come back in the springtime for good spring grazing. So you can kind of look through this of the different mixes that but a lot of these things I've never heard of. I just didn't have the experience in it and it was a great learning curve for me to see these different mixes come out of the ground.

18:31 No till drill, great tool. It's got a lot of advantages but you need to know how to set it and here JB Daniels with NRCS is looking at the depth to make sure the seed is going in properly. Rea in the middle is just checking to see what JB's looking for and then I'm watching the whole show there try to learn a few things. Here we are back again and JB is looking at what's coming up. He's kind of giving me a lesson on what the different things look like and that was probably the biggest advantage of this field day was so much one-on-one time with JB and some of the others to really learn what I'm trying to do and get that on firsthand knowledge.

19:15 This is what the five different zones look like by mid-November of that year. You see the diversity of the mixes and how they looked at that point. I'm not a numbers guy. I look at appearances. I wish I was more of a numbers guy but JB did a followup behind this field day and he provided these charts and this one is showing the fall forage and the quantity and quality of the different strips. This one is showing the springtime mix, same same values and also the length of time that the graze and provided, which was important. I think this graph shows the balance between the fall grazing and spring grazing and all of these are depending on rain and weather. Each year is going to be different but this is what it looked like in 2015. Just a shot of my pasture and this is kind of the mix that I have kind of settle into after the demonstration.

20:24 I use this mix for two reasons. I use it in transition if I'm taking an existing pasture and I want to convert it to a permanent pasture with a different seed base I will use this mix in the process to improve the soils so I don't have that look you saw in that field by the house with some green some brown. I actually used this mix for seven years until that brown disappeared and that field became consistent top to bottom and then I knew it was time to convert to permanent vegetation.

21:02 This is a November shot of that field day and you look at the turnip and the tillage radish. First time through with these it was amazing. You see the bulbs and really what that radish is doing it's sending down fibrous roots maybe as low as three feet in a season. Those fibrous roots reach nutrients and trace minerals that the grasses can't get to because the roots don't go deep enough. It brings it to the bulb where it stores it until it dissolves over the winter and then springtime those nutrients are there right on the surface for the grasses. Big advantage also does a lot to break up compaction on hard areas.

21:49 Springtime grazing same mix and the winter mix I grazed it down almost to dirt. They kept telling me don't worry it'll come back in the spring and I was pretty nervous until I saw kind of first of April and I did see it really bounce back and put the forage on the ground.

22:07 This shot, you know when I said my two objectives one wanted the farm to look good I wanted a productive cattle operation, this kind of goes to that first goal. It adds color to your landscape kind of brightens the farm up and it's great nutritional value and all of this stuff but it just does a lot to make the place look better.

22:29 Same shot here showing the vetch few other things. Cattle grazing that mix this year was a great clover vetch year in this mix. Some other years you may not see as much but each year's different but the whole basic program pretty strong.

22:45 Kind of the permanent shot last time we're going to see this field. This is a stand of weeds I planted novel fescue in early September. We didn't get rain for the month of September so the weeds came up. I knew the seed was there so I just kept the weeds under control. Eventually the novel took over but now this fescue field is very productive as a permanent cool season grass.

23:11 The second mix I use is similar to the first but I don't require grazing early winter. These pastures I have my calving season in these so it's grazed intensively in August September October. End of October I drill it with a mix that does not include the spring oats or the tillage radish because they don't go through the winter but pretty much everything else in that first mix is. It gives me grazing. I'm typically grazing by the third week in March which can be up to 30 days sooner than normal cool season grasses. Really productive. It's just a great. I can get two or three rotations through it. They're not midgets, they're full grown cattle that you see in the background.

24:02 I do about 40 acres or a third of my farm in this mix. Sometimes I can't get to it fast enough before it gets mature so but it makes great hay if you can't get to it to graze.

24:17 The byproduct of this mix is these pastures that I'm drilling it in really were a mixed bag. They were you know some cool season some warm season but by competing with the native cool season I have converted them to strictly warm season native grasses. So I've got Bermuda grass I've got crab grass and I've got Johnson grass. So really matches up for where I want my cattle to be at that time of year.

24:45 Pearl Millet I use that in a summer rotation and really if you're having a drought that millet is still going to produce and it's just a safety valve. If I don't need it for grazing I will put it up in hay so versatile crop.

25:01 Novel Fescue and I didn't have any completely clean stands of anything when I started and so I've been really impressed with the novel and the quality of it. Because of my spring mix I'm using I don't have to graze the novel in spring. I typically can stockpile that if I need it in the summer or if I don't I'll cut it for hay and bail it and let it come back in the fall.

25:29 Permanent pasture warm season switch grass is a little slower to get started, but that's another crop that's really good for the summer. It doesn't need a lot of water. They recommend you don't fertilize it, but this was naturally here when the settlers came through in the 1700s. It's made for soil. It's just slow to get it started, but once you get it there it's easy to keep.

25:54 And that pretty well sums it up. I know I went a little bit long with that, but hopefully it'll maybe answer or strike a few things that you see that maybe will work for you. I know different parts of the country you've got different weather conditions and a lot of this isn't possible, but maybe still it'll trigger a thought that will give you something to work with.

26:17 All right, Jake, and I'll turn it back to you. Sounds good. Thanks, Ronnie. That was excellent. We can, I guess I have a couple questions for you and then there's already some Q coming through the chat and everything, so we'll get to those here in a few minutes as well. My first question I had for you, maybe a two-part question, going back to one of your slides with the challenges—you had an eight or so bullet point list of the challenges there. One is there one that was like surprising? I didn't anticipate that being such an issue as it was. And then second, was there one that's still challenging? What's the most challenging now using some of these Soil Health principles, if that makes sense.

27:04 I was hoping this was multiple choice. Okay, I have to go back and look at my list, but I think my biggest surprise was that I don't think I really was surprised. All of them I didn't see any of them in the beginning other than I lacked infrastructure. I think diversity was not something I considered upfront, and I certainly saw it as I work through the process. But kind of caught me flat footed on that one.

27:40 Yeah, what about now? Like what's maybe a challenge that you're still dealing with? I think the issue of diversity, and I know in the truest sense of the word, each one of the pastures would be a pasture that would flourish in cool season and then you flip a switch and it would do it again in the warm season, and that doesn't happen in nature. Most of my pastures was a blend—some of cool season and some of warm season, but at any one season you're only 50% productive. So you've got a 10 acre pasture, but in effect you've got a 5 acre pasture. It's taking up 10 acres of ground to do it. So it's kind of like water. Hot water, you make tea or make coffee. Cool water, it's good to drink by itself. You mix the two, you wash your hands on it. It's not really usable.

28:39 And so I've chosen to modify that diversity. I want my pastures to be diverse, but I want them to be consistent within the pastures. Now that spring mix that I talked about, I think is the closest I can come to that. Because that pasture—say it's a 5 acre pasture—it's extremely productive once I drill that mix in. I've got late March, April, May into June. I can rotate through that pasture three times typically, and then I have June and July that it just kind of is in transition, and then the summer grasses come on in July, August, September, and they'll be okay until we get frost, which in our area is typically in November. So really, and then I turn them green again almost immediately so they look good for December, January, February. So to me that's the best of both worlds. I'm getting 10 acres of grazing out of 5 acres of land. It is some cost, but I think it's a cost worth doing.

29:53 I like that. Now looking down the road, is that a permanent solution? I don't know. But for what I see ahead of me now, I don't see a better alternative.

30:03 Yeah, that's really good. One thing I liked, your slide of the river and then you shared the kids there. And just thinking about like water quality, I mean that is something significant in your area, especially with the rivers and everything, right? Here in corn country Nebraska, and then if you go into areas with the Mississippi River, I mean water...

30:25 Quality is such a big thing, an important topic. I'm glad that you shared a little bit on that. I think it is kind of a soil health issue too at times. You know Jake, follow up on that. I'm also a director at Monic and Soil and Water. I didn't become a director until actually I'd seen how they worked and the benefit they provide. It's typically non-government. There's almost no red tape involved. What they do, they just get on the ground and get it done. So I agreed to run for a director spot.

31:01 When we go to, and I felt the same way, when I thought I don't want to give up a 35 foot buffer of my creeks, and you know this is some of your most lush grazing you have and you're keeping the cattle out, but what I very soon realized is I'm not giving up anything. I'm just transitioning that to a higher use. We've got a trail around the farm and I've got a playground down at the creek that I didn't show, but we're using that a lot more importantly than what the cattle used it for.

31:36 With the rotational grazing, I increased my grazing potential almost the first year of not being able to rotate and then rotate and rest. Now I've got their 175 acre farm. We reduced it to 125 acres. I would say year two, I had more grazing than I did with 175, and I've only seen that grow as the years progressed. So I think it's just putting land to a higher use.

32:07 Obviously a lot of that has to do with the rotation and everything. Can you give a little bit of either practical advice or tips on strategies on rotating? Like, how long are you leaving them on there? Are you grazing it down to the ground? I assume obviously you're not, but you know, talk about what you're leaving and what you're taking, what's regrowing and things like that.

32:28 You know, that depends on what's in the pasture. There are times when I do this cool mix that I'm putting in for the spring grazing. I do graze that bluegrass. You can graze that to the ground. It stores all this energy in the root system and that's a very tough durable grass that cattle don't tear up really bad in the winter time. But your fescue, that's going to store in the leaf. You want to take half and leave half, maybe when you're going through stockpiled in the winter time. Maybe you graze a little bit closer because the plant's dormant anyway.

33:05 The switch grass, you want to leave about 12 inches. You don't want to get closer than 12. So you've got to learn your species and learn what they can tolerate and how that plant operates. You know, where is storage in that plant? And that kind of controls it. But yeah, I'm currently working on a grazing plan with NRCS and they're going to help me learn a little bit more as to better manage. A lot depends on what you've got coming and what's behind you.

33:37 You know, like I say, I started thinking I'm not going to cut hay on this farm anymore. My father did it for years and he cut late June and you get a dry June, July, that's why you don't have any grazing come August and September. But with this forage and rotation and rest, I probably cut maybe close to half of my pastures last year for hay because I couldn't get to it to graze them. Now my stocking rate's down a little bit. I've done that on purpose to give me a chance to renovate pastures.

34:11 But I'm at a point because of what I saw last year, I'm ready to up the herd a little bit, maybe add another 10 to 15 animals to the herd this year through heifers that I've developed. But I think you've got to find that right balance between stocking rate and how much are you willing to feed hay in the dry times. It's a balancing act that's not always easy to come up with the right answer.

34:36 That's really good. Knowing your species is excellent advice. Yeah, picked up some things there. Last question I'll ask and then we can jump into some of the Q&A. When you're talking about, let's see what was I going to ask? Oh yeah, one of the comments here, not in the Q&A, but just speaking to the one-on-one, you had some pictures of you and JB in the field. And just I'm sure what an impact that must have made. My question I guess is, how would you advise a young producer or somebody who's just kind of starting out that doesn't necessarily—

39:48 Burned down unless you're planning on renovating the pasture, but there are select chemicals out there. Long term effects, I can't answer that, but it's a risk I was willing to take on my place.

40:03 Yeah, no, that's good. There's definitely a lot to consider there, and you know, to add to the five principles of soil health you shared, I mean the sixth one that's often talked about is the context and just knowing what fits your situation might not always be the answer for another situation. And I admire people who do it organically. I just haven't figured out how to pull that trigger. I know they're cringing when I talk about grazing on enduring corn, but it's just different tools in your box. You've got to decide which ones you want to use.

40:34 Yeah, okay. Let's go to this one. I think if I'm understanding right, after the, for making the cover crop or the mix, maybe it's meaning like as you're drilling or planting it. Do you till or you drilling? No till drill. And I guess maybe to get at some of the question is, you know, is it difficult to plant some annual cover crops into an already existing pasture and different things like that? I don't know if I'm missing a little bit of the question, but I'd be curious too with like planting rates and you know, doing a full rate versus going down if something's already there.

41:13 Well, I'll have to say I have relied on y'all's calculator chart that y'all have on your website—a great tool for a beginner to give you advice as to how much rate of each one to put in a mix. I am using a no till drill and you calculate it's all mixed in together, so I'm emptying a 50 pound bag into a hopper on a no till drill instead of putting the sheet of plastic down and taking five different components and trying to mix it at home. Typically the depth, what I've tried to do is kind of go mid-range. It's more likely you're going to have problems if you go too deep. But yeah, I mean clover, typically you want just under the surface. I'm drilling 3/4 to half inch, but I think the clover is following the channel that the millet or something else has created, but I seem to get a good mix. I'm very pleased with the diversity of the mix and how it's scattered throughout the field. I don't see isolated spots as all one, but no tills are great tools. You've got access to it, it restricts the amount of seeds you need because you can put it exactly where you need it.

42:29 Yeah, that's really good. And the planting depth, I mean, that's another advantage of diversity. It's not just after it's in the soil and growing with different root types and stuff, but yeah, coming up, I mean, you wouldn't want to plant just clover by itself at, you know, an inch deep or anything, but with the peas or grasses or other species in there, it really does come up really nice. Some of those smaller seeded species when it's planted with the larger species.

42:56 Yep, that's really good. Let's go to this one from Jonathan in Mississippi. He says, 'I'm a hair sheep producer looking to possibly planting a cool season cover crop in a worn out sweet potato ground to give it a five to seven year rest period. Would you just let the native seed bank form a warm season pasture, or would you see a warm season grazing cover?' You know, I'm out on my league talking about Mississippi. I'm afraid I don't know what options they have. But if he's trying to get a cool season into that, I don't know. Do you know how well does cool season—what I think of cool season at mid-Atlantic—how does that translate to Mississippi? They're not gonna have the fescues, I don't think. Maybe so, I don't know.

43:52 Natural seed—a lot of people to the party I don't think you want invited. So I think you want to control it. If it's pretty much weed free now, keep it weed free and come up with a recommendation from your local people that know what they're talking about instead of me from Virginia to make a recommendation as to what to plant. But I would definitely control that narrative and not let nature do what it wants to do.

44:19 Yeah, I like that. And you know, there's—I think Jonathan just mentioned on the chat.

44:23 Here the guy who asked the question, but yeah they have a long ryegrass, annual rye grass and things like that in Mississippi and putting some in there whether you decide that's annuals or some other perennials.

44:38 Okay, here's another question: have you seen your dollars increase after your soil health journey? I guess a little bit on the economics. It is, and I was scared about that problem. I've been in buildup mode the whole time I've been in charge of the cattle. You saw what I started with, you see where I'm at. It's not my main source of income, and that can be a curse sometimes because it's not your main income. I mean, I'm still going to eat whether my cattle produce or not, so you tend to take it lightly and it shouldn't be. It's an important factor, and I've kind of turned that corner now where I am starting to look at the finances. And instead of just doing things to make the farm better, I want to continue that train, but I also want to, on a joint track, how can I make it more productive? What can we do to generate more income while we're going down that track?

45:38 So yeah, I definitely see improvement across the board. I'm feeding much less hay than I was before. Early on I had to supplement hay with pellets from a feed producer, 14, 16% to get enough energy. Body conditions were not good, conception rates were lower. Air conception rates in the mid-90s now. On calving, calving bottle, the cow's body score is not dipping below typically below a six. Pastures are looking better. It's the whole thing. When I take steers to market, they're grading note top at a sale. So yeah, it all adds up. I can't put a number to it, but it's there and I'm very comfortable the way it's progressing. I just think there's still room to go.

46:31 Yeah, and kind of a follow-up question too that I didn't read at the first time, but Jody also asked kind of whether by having to spend less on feed and kind of less inputs, so that could be part of more of the economic gains, and then hopefully some more production as well. But yeah, less inputs is a huge thing for cattle, a huge thing for row crop farmers as well, going more towards, you know.

46:56 Okay, we had one question here talking about weeds in the pasture and you not wanting to have those come up, but don't the cattle eat the weeds if they have a choice? Typically no. When you finish grazing a pasture that has good grass in it and has weeds, you take them out. Typically what's left are the weeds. And I know there's some weeds that are good in protein and energy, but I want to keep control. And weeds tend to take over. They're pulling nutrients and moisture away from the desired plant, and that's a personal question that each person's got to answer for themselves. For me, I want a clean pasture, and that goes back to the appearance of it. I want to look good and I want to keep them where they are productive. I want to keep the species of grass that I have to continue, and if it has competition, you're not doing that. You're losing ground, and every day to Sunday, weeds are going to compete with something you plant. That's just the way it is. They can survive in drier conditions. Some advantages: weeds will pull up their roots, go deep, and they'll like the radishes and the turnips and the canola. Sometimes they'll bring stuff to the surface, but at the same time, they're probably taking away more than they're adding to the equation. So for me, I'm going to try to keep them under control.

48:22 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and I think it goes back to what you said earlier with knowing your species. Even knowing your weed species, some are probably more nutritious than others. Some are going to be more invasive and harder to control than others. So some may not be a huge problem, and you know what they say about weeds is you, nature's bandaid, or it's telling a story. So it's definitely something to take mind of, and some might be more, you know, what you want to control, and some you're okay with a little bit more. But they're called weeds for a reason.

48:52 Yeah, okay, yep, so no, that's good. I'm curious how, maybe from I guess whatever time frame you want to structure this question in, but from 2016 or 2019 to now.

49:09 What were some of your initial soil health goals and then how has that kind of changed over time? That gives me a good opportunity to bring up fertilization. We haven't talked about that at all. We use solids and I don't know how many people that are listening have that opportunity, and that's a hot and cold topic in itself. You either love them or you hate them. We've used them for a number of years. We do the half rate, but before they can apply those they have to do a nutrient management plan that's reviewed by DCR and they cannot apply more than my soils can take up, so they're not just dumping it on the ground. This stuff is checked for heavy metals and contaminants at the plant before it leaves. They have it with lime or without, so if your pH needs adjustment it's a free commodity. They spread it for you. You just have to give them the permission to do it. That's helped a lot.

50:12 I have not been retesting because they've been doing it. This year I think I'm going to test behind them or in front of them and see how the tests match up just for my own benefit. But just from the production that pastures are generating and the fact that the pastures are becoming more consistent in how it looks from one side of the past to the other, I don't have the numbers to back it up but we've made pretty strong progress in improving that. I still have maybe 30 acres that I want to convert to a permanent stand from these warm water pastures that are split 50/50. I still have some more to convert but we'll do them one at a time. Like I say it may take two or three years to get one of those to where I see the signals that it's ready to go permanent and to be able to thrive once it gets there.

51:16 It's really good. I know a question I've had a lot in the past is just grazing versus you mentioned potential of a hay crop. A lot of the species can do both. And then I'd be a not a very good sales rep if I didn't mention and reiterate what you said about the smart mix calculator. It can help kind of give species recommendations on if you're grazing it or if you're looking to graze but possibly hay it. That might be some slightly different species or similar species but different variety of millet or sorghum or warm or cool season cereal or something like that.

51:55 I'll give you another plug. Multiple times when I've called into place of order I've been told I'm ordering too much seed per acre. That's not the role y'all should be playing but it's one I certainly respect you for. I've compromised. I have cut back as prices have gone up and I'm cost conscious with what I'm spending. I've come off my rates a little bit. But I like what I'm seeing and I guess I'm scared to go cold turkey and do the whole thing in one reduction. But yeah there are different things you can do to adjust that up and down.

52:35 I've been very pleased with the mixes. The fact that I am able to have surplus grazing in different parts of the year, not just springtime like it would be if you all cool season, but the millet is a kind of a wild card. I can do either one and it makes great hay. Same thing with spring mix. I don't want it to go overmature to where it's lost its value of grazing. So you try to maximize the production of that pasture either through grazing or through hay. When you do it for grazing you're getting a better distribution of the manure going back on the soil. We unroll hay when we feed and we try to put it back for the most part in the same passes it came from so that's another way to compensate for that.

53:30 To be a little vulnerable I guess, I mean you could talk to all the experts in soil health and cover crops specifically and you'd get a lot of different perspectives on planting rates. There's just so many variables. What your goals are, you might want to have a higher rate for grazing for just ground cover maybe backing off. Higher rainfall environment you might want to go higher. But at the same time if it's a drier year or for certain species it could go less. It's kind of not a shot in the dark but there's just a lot of different variables.

54:00 Variables that play when you're thinking about how many pounds per acre, what full seating rate should I do. And I would veer a lot towards your own personal experience too, trying at maybe a couple different plots or just kind of what you've done year to year.

54:17 Let's see one of the last questions I had on my list, and we mentioned it a little bit even before we went live, is just kind of your perspective on where you're at kind of on the eastern part of the country to West with a lot larger farm land. But overall, do you feel optimistic about the future of farming?

54:44 Air Farm is located like I say 20 minutes from Richmond. Before long that's going to be 10 minutes to Richmond. The cities are growing. We're pretty much an island where we are with development, large lot subdivisions around us. We're pretty much surrounded. I have placed air farm in a conservation easement which means it will never be divided. It doesn't have to always be farmed actually, but it can never be a subdivision. That farm has existed for 300 years. I don't feel like I have the authority to take it out of agriculture and put it into cash, which would mean if it developed, the little boys saw the creek in the creek. They're grandsons that are growing up on the farm now. So I want to at least give them an opportunity to do what I was able to do.

55:37 Recently I took a road trip that took me from Virginia weaving through Kentucky, Illinois, Indiana, and Minnesota. Iowa, kind of skipped, well we did go through it but I lifted in my narrative South Dakota, Montana down through Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, Indiana, Idaho, and other states, then back on the southern leg through a little bit of New Mexico. Long story short, where I'm seeing a lot of farmland being swallowed up by development where we are is a major concern. Farming is still King in most of this country, and yeah, it really does encourage me to think hey, there's a future for farming. You just may have to relocate to stay in it.

56:28 It's just a lot of diversity in the country that I've never seen firsthand, but I am very encouraged by the development, the effort that states and the federal government are putting towards helping farmers not only with financial incentives to try different things and put stuff in practice, but the technical advice. Yeah, I think there is a great future ahead of us.

56:54 I hope so because we got a lot of people to feed. Yeah, that's a really good answer. I think I would agree, and it kind of ties back to our green cover purpose statement. I don't know if everybody knows because we just slightly tweaked it not too long ago where it's to help people regenerate, but also to steward and share God's creation for future generations. Yeah, the boys in the creek, I mean that's relatable to a lot of different people. And just kind of keeping that on and not just sustainable but making that even better for generations to come.

57:27 I had a soil scientist come to the farm in 2014 and we were looking at a pasture that had a lot of little ups and downs. I said you know, when did this erode that much, create this landscape? And I said I know it was timbered in the 50s. He looked at me and he said you know, that didn't happen in the 50s. That happened probably 150 years prior to that. And he says you know, they did no environmental. They came into this area. Top soil would have been 2 feet deep. Now can you imagine what you could grow? I don't know whether it would hold up tractors if topsoil that deep, but what was possible? And now on air farm, and I think we're pretty well blessed with topsoil, we've six to eight inches in most places that's distinguishable as topsoil. How much can I build that over my lifetime? You know, can I get it back to 10 inches maybe before I pass it off? But I think that's the attitude we all need to take: not what I can get out of this, but what can I put back in it for the next generation? How can I make it easier for them than I saw? So that's kind of where I'm trying to go with this point.

58:43 I love it. That's really great, good wisdom there for sure. Ronnie, any last thoughts or anything you want to plug before we kind of end here?

58:52 No, I probably plugged enough. Well, appreciate your wisdom and insight and perspective again. That was very valuable for me personally and hopefully everybody else watching. So thanks again for joining.