Farming for Profit Over Yield: Greg Thoren on Corn Interseeding, Cover Crop Grazing, and Direct Beef Marketing

0:00 Hey everybody, welcome to the Green Cover podcast where we have really interesting conversations with some of the top farmers and experts in the regenerative world. Join us as we learn together how to regenerate God's creation for future generations.

0:15 Have you ever thought there's got to be a better way to grow my crops and to market my crops? I think most of us as producers have thought that. And our guest today, Mr. Greg Thoren from Illinois. He's done more than just think about that. He's actually accomplished that. And he has found that there are different ways and better ways. And so we love working with people like Greg who are willing to think outside the traditional box and think about new ways, better ways to not only grow their crops, but also to market them. So Greg, welcome to the Green Cover podcast.

0:51 Thank you. Thanks for having me. Should be an interesting event here.

0:56 Yeah. Well, you know, I've talked with you at various events that we've been at together and you've been buying green cover seed for a while, so I know a little bit about you and your background, but for the sake of the listening audience, go ahead and just share a little bit of your background. Where you're farming, how long you've been there, and just some of what's led you to the point where you're at now.

1:17 Okay. We're I live in the far northwest corner of Illinois. So to the west of our county is Iowa. To the north of our county is Wisconsin. So we're right up in the far northwest corner. We're in the driftless area. So we are not flat and black by any means. We do have some glaciated land in the northeastern part of the county. I farm primarily driftless land, more rolling, some very productive land but yet some very tough land also with poor soils. We run a cow calf operation. We raise corn, soybeans, wheat, oats, forages for our livestock and everything's no-till. We run about 2200 acres. Everything is no-till cover crop. We're doing regenerative, strong regenerative practices. I have been certified Regenified in the fifth tier the last two years. I just got in the process of being recertified right now for the third year. So we'll see where that comes out at.

2:21 Well, that's a lot and yeah, you sound like our kind of people. So that's why you're on here. So, Greg, in your area, how common is it for people to have livestock and to have crops other than just corn and soybeans? Is that somewhat common in your area or are you kind of an outlier with the crops you're growing?

2:40 Jo Daviess County is the largest beef cattle cow calf, I believe, county in the whole state of Illinois. It used to be the largest dairy for a number of head of dairy cow, but it is no longer that. So there again with our topography, we do have the advantage of a lot of pasturing. We should have more perennials on the ground when we do. A lot of pastures have been turned into annual crop production for various reasons like across the country and we're seeing the ramifications of that in erosion, wind erosion and more so with our hills, you might say, so a lot of soil erosion.

3:27 Yeah. And you're not unique in Illinois for that. I think there's a lot of areas that could say the exact same thing that we should get some of this marginal ground back to perennials, but that's probably a whole another podcast episode. So probably a little more diversified than what a lot of people would think of for Illinois. But even with that, you're still pushing into a lot of areas. So one of the first things, Greg, that I want to talk about here that I think people will find very interesting because it's a hot topic. We get lots of questions about corn interseeding, you know, what can we plant in between our rows of corn? What has a chance of success? Lots of people have been experimenting with it. We've been doing it on our own plots and then I know you've been doing it as well. And I want you to just talk a little bit about how, you know, things you've tried with interseeding into corn, the timing, the—

4:21 The seeds, how you're getting it in there, your row spacing. Tell us a little bit about that because I think that's one of the unique things that you're doing in your area there. Originally we started interceding corn in 30-inch rows. We used a spreader, high clearance spreader truck or an applicator, and we did have good germination. That first year just put cereal rye down to see if things would work. Cereal rye did germinate. We had plenty of rain. The corn was probably at the fourth collar stage, and it did grow. Of course, as the corn got taller—we plant about 32 to 36,000 population—it basically starved that cereal rye for sunlight and it fell over and died.

5:15 Herbicide-wise, we were watching that also at that time. Transitioned into this year we're going to have about 200 acres of 60-inch row corn and we're doing things somewhat different than we did even 3 years ago. I'm trying to interseed some species on certain of these acres that have a higher rate of herbicide on, but we'll go read herbicide labels and see what annual crops will grow in that herbicide and then use that as our interseeding mix. Not all of it will be that way. We're going to have two different mixes from your company this year and very excited to try that. Then we'll have some local seed house here do some mixing for us.

6:05 For 60-inch rows, actually I've got the opportunity to work with Bob Recker out of Waterloo, Iowa. He's been working with 60-inch rows for quite a number of years and he's pretty excited about this because we also have virtual fencing for our cattle. We started this last October and actually at the Regen Nexus at Omaha Hall this past year, I ate with him at one meal and we were talking about the 60-inch row and I showed him the app on my phone with these neck bands for virtual fencing. And he just lit up like a light. He says, 'This is what's going to make the 60-inch row work.' And I said, 'Yes, because you have two income sources off of it.' Very simple. So this is going to be a fun year to see how this works.

6:56 With Bob this year, we're doing some straight 60s with various populations. I have one hybrid that actually double ears at 28,000 in 30-inch rows—double to triple ear, they claim. So we're trying some of that in 60-inch rows. Generally in a 60-inch row, we'll keep the same population per acre, so basically those plants are half as close together as a 30-inch row. So if they were say 7 inches apart in a 30-inch row, they're going to be 3.5 inches apart in a 60-inch row. Pretty tight. We're going to actually plant some of these with different populations that are pretty easy to do with the technology nowadays. We planted some of these 60s at 40,000 population and hopefully we'll get some double ears and different things here, but we won't know unless we try.

7:50 This is all no-till. We split 60-inch rows from the last couple of years. Actually I have several fields that'll be third-year corn. Hoping that if I can figure out this interseeding, I can almost maybe go continuous corn. Don't know that yet, but I'm hoping to because soybeans—I don't need soybeans as much as I do corn. I can use corn better and I think it's better. I can build organic matter better and stuff too.

8:24 On the bean side as far as extra income, we've grown food grade soybeans probably for 15 or 20 years and we still do non-GMO food grade soybeans. So all these regenerative practices—non-GMO seed and different things—they just work with the system. How we interseed our 60-inch row corn is I have a 15-foot drill, a three-point drill, and then we just move some double disc openers, take a couple off, move them around, and then we'll just actually interseed with that. So we have a controlled spill.

9:05 With the drill, and that seemed to work very well last year. I did not get out in time last year. My corn was too tall for me last year when I entered seeded. This year we're on top of things and long as I get my seed from green cover in time, we'll be right on the money as far as putting it. It's on the way. It's on the way. Excited.

9:26 So this will be a good thing. Yes, I'm very excited. So you mentioned, Greg, that first year you were spinning it on. It was probably at V4 or so. Is that kind of what you're shooting for yet or are you trying to go just a little bit earlier now that you know you've got a little experience?

9:44 I want to go earlier. I think actually we have our soil temperatures been very cool. We're running anywhere from 47 to 51 degrees the last three weeks, you might say. Yeah, that's chilly. And things just are not growing. They're there, but they're just not growing. Now, it's supposed to get warmer this weekend and they'll take off.

10:05 I would like to get heightwise, even if you go heightwise. If I could get that plant seeded, say when it's 8 inches to a foot tall, even if you want to go that way, I would be I think I'd be happier. Last year, actually, I was snapping corn off of the tractor was too tall.

10:26 Bell of the tractor. So I mean, these are just things and it's every all this is a timing thing in my mind. It's all a timing thing. And going back to even mixes that and you maybe you want to talk about the mixes that we're doing with the I want to say the Rick Clark mix. I'm going to say with the different families in there. I think that's going to be very beneficial. But yet I want something too that will stay green, will stay there to harvest because I do want to graze it with my livestock and some of that we'll stockpile and graze through the winter also.

10:57 Well, it's going to be very interesting because the mixes that we sent you have a lot more diversity than what most corn interseeding mixes would have. In fact, you're going to try, I think maybe 20 acres of the Mila mix that will have the squash and the pumpkins and the corns and that'll be really interesting. Cucumbers, all that to see how that does. And then, yeah, just others that are just focusing on plant family diversity to try to really maximize that. But the key, doesn't matter what plants you have there, if they're not getting any sunlight, they're probably not going to grow. So that 60-inch row is really a pretty big key for that, right?

11:33 Yes, you need sunlight. And everything I've seen in the past, too, you have to have sunlight. We do have with the way our land lays, we can't plant everything east and west. So we've got some east and west, we've got some north and south, and some, you know, things are on the contour. So it does vary throughout the field. But sunlight is the key.

11:55 Yeah. Now, you mentioned earlier, you know, on your 60-inch rows, you said you're trying some populations at 40,000. Does that 40,000 within that 60-inch row, that'd be the equivalent of 20 on a 30-inch row?

12:10 No. Yes. Yes, that is correct. That is correct. Yes. So about 50% less than less plants than what you would normally do, but you're counting on a really big flexing hybrid that can put multiple ears on. Yes, this one hybrid will do that they claim. So we'll put her to the test. And then I've gone the other way with other hybrids that we're we planted in the 60-inch row and Bob Recorder wanted to do suggested this too. We planted as high as in the upper 30s population. So I've got like in the up say even close I even did some at 40 I think. So we've got 80,000 in the row. So you got to plant like every two and a half inches. Yes. If if they all drop if they all germ and that too.

13:01 Yeah. What have you seen Greg on yields? I don't know if you've been doing 60s or 30s enough and I know you know PFI Practical Farmers of Iowa has had a number of really good studies on this. Have you seen a yield

13:18 Drop on your 60-inch corn versus your 30? I would say definitely yes. The way I have been doing it in the past, you know, every year we think we're going to get better and get closer to that 30 inch row. So we'll see what happens this year. But there again, a lot of playing around and experimenting this year. I definitely have seen a less yield, but yet we'll have in certain spots of the field. There's various reasons for the lesser yield. It can be the cover crop didn't grow as much and there's more weeds there. Usually foxtail come in, whatever. A lot of different variables because my soil varies so much.

13:58 But I have also had 200 bushel plus corn in areas in those fields over 200 bushel corn. And that's really good for the type of land I farm. So yeah, plus I have a cover crop underneath it that we do graze. And that's the key is I can take less yield and have forage and we've calculated some forage results in some of this and it's up it can be up to $200 an acre worth of forage out there after you combine that corn. So I can take quite a bit less yield. And then I'm a low input farmer too that you know my inputs are very low. I don't use any phosphash or any other synthetic fertilizers except lower nitrogen, you know naked seed no insecticides no fungicides. We do use herbicides. So you know we don't have a lot out there and equipment wise too you know tractors, combine or tractors, planters, sprayer in a combine is all we have.

14:59 Yeah, fairly simple. Yeah. Low cost low overhead. So that really helps especially in tough economic times because you know when margins are tight if you don't get the yield you can be reducing on the cost side and still be profitable. Yes, that's I've been keying on that for quite a few years is it's not about the bushels per acre, it's about your net return per acre and everybody knows that. But I think we need to.

15:29 Yeah, we all know it, but that doesn't mean we all follow it because yeah, you still, you know, there's still social pressure. There's still, you know, guys say, 'Yeah, how'd your corn do this year?' And you know, and yeah, we all want to do to have the biggest yields we can, but you're right. When it comes right down to it, it's the biggest profit per acre is what's going to keep.

15:48 But Keith, why why do we want the biggest yields? Because the more we produce, the lower the price is. There's too much on the market. Keith, you know, we have to think different. We have to think nutrient dense. I really think we and the theoretically they claim the less yield you have, the more nutrient dense it is. Well, yeah. Depending how you produce it. Totally makes sense. And so that's a great segue, Greg, into kind of the next topic I want to talk about because you are growing more nutrient-dense grains that's been tested. You know that and you're marketing, you're capturing some of that value in that market. So talk a little bit about, you know, the testing that's been done on some of your grain, how it's different, and then how you're marketing that and capturing a premium.

16:33 Well, basically I'm probably not up on the nutrient testing like I should be as far as numbers and knowing where everything exactly is at, but it is quite a bit better than conventional grain. And how I compared to other people, I don't exactly know that, but the program when I I guess I start how I got into this is with Regenified. We were we've been doing these practices for five or six years and to various extent and I thought well when we genified this is like two years ago two and a half years ago I I thought I always thought an awful lot of understanding and I've been to some healthy cat one so healthy cat meeting up here in Wisconsin and watch a lot of YouTube videos and listen to podcasts and stuff through the years. So I got a hold of Regenified. It was late in the season. I was going to do it in the spring and got busy here two years ago and didn't and I called them in August and asked if they.

17:32 If they could do something to that yet, and they said yeah we'll be we can make this work I think in September. So they actually came out and verified me the first year in September and for the practices that I were doing and what they saw what I was doing is they I got certified in the top tier which is I figured I'd probably be in maybe there's five different tiers and I thought I'd be maybe be in the kind of the middle tier, you know, maybe the middle. I didn't have any idea I'd be in the top tier. Yeah. Most people don't start at tier five, Greg. That's pretty good. No. Well, that's it. Yeah. Where do you go from there? Only down. So that's what I'm looking for.

18:15 So anyway, that's where we're at. So and my thing was yeah, I've got my food grade soybeans. I get a premium for those half years, but my corn I also had issues with my non-GMO corn getting premium off that. So I thought, well, this will be an opportunity to gain some more revenue with the non-GMO corn was with the premiums through Regenifi.

18:37 So we did that. Now, to back up, I have been selling premium crops since I've been out of high school and I graduated in 1975, but I it was in the hay marketing yet. Okay. Of course, hay. So we've been we've had our whole career and we still selling some, but my mindset has changed around in that because I want to keep that carbon at home instead of selling it. Yep. Same way with straw. We've got a stripper head where we used to flip everything to the ground as strong and take it off to the horse market. Now I've got a stripper head and there's no struggle. He's my farm. Everything stays and it just adds to the benefits of everything we're doing. Good for you. Yeah.

19:19 So it it's all marketing. It's all about it's all about marketing. It's about net return. It's about not spending as much to produce a crop, but yet having that net return better. Yeah, it's there's a lot of factors there, but it it really works nice when it does. Yeah. Yeah.

19:38 And so I was actually I was actually doing a webinar earlier today with Regenified. Solar was hosting it. And so we were just chatting a little bit about that and he was saying that, you know, your grain, a lot of your corn is you're shipping to California, right? To a lot of it goes to feed turkeys. Is that right? Yes, he's saying that those turkeys coming out of that barn eating your grain that you know has this tested higher nutrient density, they're showing significantly higher levels of nutrient density and the turkey meat because of this corn, which one would expect, but you know, they're verifying that and they're, you know, proving that now. And so that's just got to be really encouraging I would think to you to know that there's a better product going onto the plates of the American consumer partly because of how you're growing your corn. Yes. Yes.

20:33 And and I'm very satisfied with that and working through Regenified. I keep telling them I can sell my corn to ADM down here in Clinton, Iowa, 45 minutes away. And I can do all this other stuff, but I'm in my mind I'm producing a food consumable product. I'm not I don't want to put it through a by a byproduct system, you might say, or processing system. Let's go through livestock. Let's get it into the human food chain directly rather than through processing.

21:04 And and so so this is really interesting because because I had this conversation with someone just the other day. Do you think it changes your mindset, Greg, when you know that what you're growing is going to end up either directly or indirectly right on someone's plate versus knowing that what you're growing is just going to produce fuel that's going to go in somebody's car. Does that change your mindset as a farmer? It changed my mindset. I don't know if it changes every farmer's mindset, but it changes my mindset. It truly does. And one one of the things is we do direct market some beef. We have for years and small amounts where it seems like more and more but just had a customer pick up a quarter of beef yesterday and he's and he drove a 100

21:55 Miles to pick it up and he's actually a chiropractor in around the suburbs of Chicago. And he was saying too the quality of the meat and he talks to people about this and a lot of people just don't get it, you know. He doesn't push it but the ones that do, and he says there's just so much night and day difference of how the meat quality that we have compared to the grocery store or other people.

22:22 We're into some grass finished animals here too. It's all what they eat. It's no different than us. What they eat is what the outcome is. Nutrient-dense, flavor, you know, the whole thing. It just is unbelievable what we can do if we do it properly and do it like nature.

22:44 And when you know you're growing that product that's going to be eaten well by your family or your neighbors or friends or customers, it does change the way you do things. I was just listening to a webinar or a video that Molly Inglehart made and you know how there's the Impossible Burger out on the market, made out of plants. Well, she's marketing the what is possible burger, you know, so a burger made out of really good regeneratively grown beef, you know. Instead of impossible, it's what is possible. And what's possible is really high quality taste, really high quality nutrient density, you know, grown in a very humane way. And it's just a win for everybody.

23:31 Yes, it definitely is, Keith. It truly is. And we don't have to change the system around that much to get all these advantages, but you do have to change. So talk a little bit about how are you growing? Is it all grass, 100% grass-fed? Are you doing that on perennials or annuals or a combination? What does that look like within your system?

23:54 My system is on the finished end. I've got a group. We just started with our first grass finished animal last August that we slaughtered. It was one calf the year before that got out of the crowd when we was working him and so we just left him with the cows and he was on grass the first year, overwintered him on forages, no grain. Finished them on grass last summer. We moved him daily so they got fresh meat every day. And I think that's a fantastic thing as far as the quality of meat. Plus, they're getting a lot of diversity. They're probably having a minimum of 20 different species that they've got to choose from. And by the time you even add in what we call weeds or undesirables, you know, they may have 30 or plus.

24:55 And I was really surprised with this first animal we did. And maybe it's beginner's luck, but we're going to have two this year to be harvested in late August, September 1st. But the quality of meat, it was a lot redder. Everyone says proper grass finished animals are, and decent marbling. Actually, the ground doesn't look any different than you might say lot finished. And the flavor wasn't grassy tasting at all. It was good. But I attribute that to the diversity of the species.

25:36 Now, going back to my lot finished cattle, we finish on about at least a 50/50 roughage ration. And we have all non-GMO. We have all non-GMO corn that we feed. I buy nothing as far as feedwise. The only thing I buy is salt in loose salt and loose mineral. Everything else I produce. But those cattle also, I will not chop corn silage anymore. I will not chop halage anymore. We use diverse anywhere from 12 to 18 way mix of cover crops and we'll chop that and then silage that or bag it. And then we feed them usually two different types of hay, a first crop hay, grassier hay. Then we'll feed them a second or third crop bale too from a different farm. So they're probably getting a minimum of 40 different species there. Plus they're getting high moisture non-GMO corn and they're again that

26:52 Grain ration, that grain in that mix is, I bet it weight wise it can't be, it's not 50%. I know it isn't. And this coming year for diversity, we're actually, I've got, I wanted to do this last year. It didn't work out the season wise, but we planted peas. We chopped this last year actually and made a great mix. Peas, oats, wheat, and barley. This year we did peas, oats, spring wheat, and spring barley. And we're going to harvest that for grain. Okay. I'm going to put that in the harvester silo.

27:25 Now, if I want to put some corn with that, we'll load this. We'll haul this up to the harvester silo on a semi, but I want to put some corn on that. So I have five different grains. I could put that on top of the and have it blend on top of the semi-load. Have it blend in. By the time it comes out, it'll be blended. Run that all through a roller mill. And what got me on to that is my mother had a threshers book from 1916 from our, actually her father was in there and most all of the, there's this one local family had actually two thresh machines back then and they had all the farmers names that they custom thresh for. They had oats, wheat, barley, spelt, some of them had rye, some of them had some red clover, but I thought, man, they got all these small grains. That makes so much sense.

28:24 Yeah. As far as ease of planting earlier in the spring, weed suppression. I know they grew corn, but it was all basically check planted corn back then and on the hills and stuff. I imagine they might have had the corn. Maybe they even fed their hogs these small grains, too. I don't know. But I don't know how much corn they had, but I know they did have corn. But it was so much easier for them to handle than you're picking corn. They could shuck everything, was harder, don't get me wrong, but they could shuck this stuff, dry it down or have it dry in the field and harvest it or whatever they did, and then thresh it.

29:00 I thought that was interesting. So if they could do it, why can't we do it? And the nicest part about it is I can, I might not be able to produce the same amount of energy or tonnage as I can with say 225, 200, 2 bushel corn, but I've only got $50 an acre seed in this and no fertility. So I don't need that bio. Yeah. So it, there again it's all about the net. So I, we're going to see what happens. I think this is going to be interesting. And the peas, you know, peas are a great food source because, you know, soybeans, you have to cook them in order to release the proteins to the animal, but peas, you don't have to do that. So you can feed, run those through that roller mill and they'll be able to take advantage of all that protein in those peas. So, that's a great system. That's a great choice and look forward to hearing how that works.

29:57 So, you know, from the marketing side, do you think that there's potential to market more of these animals direct? And do you feel like more and more people are going to be wanting the grass-fed version of what you're doing versus the grain-fed?

30:15 I think if you're into the right markets, we have, I know a local producer here in the county that's a few years older than I that has been doing grass finished animals, chickens, hogs, different things, or I mean at least beef cattle, but he's had organic hogs and chickens and different things. And we talk pretty detailed sometimes, which is good. And there's a huge market for grass-fed if you find it, but it has to be quality grass-fed like anything else. In and realistically with the topography that we have, you know, I can do some both ways, but we're going to go from one grass-fed animal to a say a year, 14 months from now, I'm going to have probably 25. So I have to find homes for that, too. So we'll see what happens. Or maybe I'll market it through a grass-fed finisher anyway. I don't know that.

31:19 Yeah, I know in our area here, one of the big limiting factors in trying to do what you're wanting to do is just local.

35:42 Chore, but I do get overwhelmed sometime. One of the things we're trying to do—my wife and I graduated the same year, but I'm 68 and I'm not going to tell you her age, but wise man. Yes, I learned this the last couple years through our 48 years of marriage. But we're going to we're in the process of transitioning our farm to I'd like to get three young—so this is an advertisement here. Three young people to transition our farm over to and we run about 2200 acres, grow crop acres now, plus pasture and livestock. Very profitable. I can almost be the banker. And I have a local fellow here. I've had actually had people from oh halfway across the country come in and visit and different things and long story but so I thought I'm going to look in the county and actually the one fellow I was thinking about known him since he was born and he's known me since he was a little fellow up grew up two miles from me and he started this spring and if I had three of him we'd be off and running just a great young man, great young man.

37:02 So, you know, we're doing different things. I'm actually have an intern from the county south of me, a young lady that is going to Kirkwood College in Cedar Rapids. She decided to intern with me because of the regenerative practices her family wants to do. And they're again with the virtual fencing. Their family just started the virtual fencing, too. Kind of off maybe off of some of my lead or direction. And it's these young people just keep you energized and going too. I still might need a nap in the middle of the day, but they keep me going, you know, in between. But things are good, you know. I can barely keep up with it, but things are good.

37:40 Well, that may be true. And you may need a nap, but let the record reflect. It's still going to take three of them to replace what you're doing. So, well, that's why. And there again, my wife and I and then we have two hired men. I'm going to say loose hired men here and they've done an excellent job for me. But to transition this over, we're actually feeding three families now to transition it over. We need the youth and someone that can take what I'm doing on the regenerified, the soil health stuff, cover crops, all this mentality is to take it to the next step. I do not want it to go back into conventional. If I have anything to do about it, it's got to move forward and the opportunity is great there for that.

38:26 Yeah. And that's such a great and important attitude and you know the I think the podcast episode that we released a couple weeks ago with John Kempf. We were talking about regenerating communities and, you know, do we have that capacity and, you know, that's not going to happen without, you know, people like you, Greg, that are, you know, saying, 'I want someone local. I'll help you. I'll support you. I can finance you. I can coach you.' And that's far too rare, unfortunately. But when it happens, that's what makes our community strong. That's how it used to be. And that's how we need to get back to. And you know, John coming out of that Amish background, they see so much more of that in their communities. And it's rare, but it's very gratifying to see it happen. You know, with folks like you who are committed to building and building and restoring and keeping what you've grown for the future.

39:25 Well, we're, like I say, this isn't a done deal yet, but I hope we can find the right people. And I truly think and I've told these everyone's real hesitant coming into this and talking with say another new party coming in and I tell everyone my idea is if you're regenerative if you have the regenerative mindset you think completely different than a conventional farmer. And I said it and it's I tell these people it's not about me, it's not about my family. It's not about you. It's not about your family. It's about the land. It's about the soil. It's about what we're producing. And if you keep that in mind, the money's going to come. It just does.

40:07 That's the way I've always been in my whole career. You do the right things, you do the proper things, you take care of things, you're a good person, you know, you treat people right. It works because your mindset and your philosophy is completely different than some other people. I'm not naming names because I don't know people. I won't say that. The mindset's completely different.

40:30 And I think especially, you know, when you're direct marketing to a consumer, consumers are smart people. They pick up on that. They know that. And that's the type, you know, that they will more likely buy from someone they trust than someone they think is, you know, doing all organic or whatever. I think trust is the number one thing that they are looking for when they're looking for a food source.

40:55 Yes. One of the things I did talk with our corn—actually we're loading four containers tomorrow. The last four containers of this batch of corn to go to California. I did talk and that corn actually goes out to Diesel's turkey farm or turkey ranch out there. They produce a million birds a year. Very successful. Lot of turkeys. Some of the background—they were the first turkey supplier to Whole Foods when they had a store in California, a store in Texas, and they've been with them since then. But I talked to Jason Diesel out there the other day. He actually was coming back from the regenerative summit that they had in Kentucky. He was getting on a plane and we talked about a half hour and talking about the marketing end.

41:45 And he said too that the people that he sells to or wants to buy their turkeys—is that their mindset is if you can produce that bird cheaper because of how you're doing it, you should be able to sell it to us cheaper. They're not looking at nutrient density. They're not looking at the quality of the meat. And I think that's the biggest hurdle. I got thinking about this yesterday. That's the biggest hurdle about what we want to do. I'm going to speak for myself through Regenified but to Regenified or any other organization with nutrient-dense food, quality food. That once it kind of leaves our farm no matter if it's a turkey or a beef or a grain or whatever, someone else has control of how much profit's there and they do control your profit.

42:45 And that's going to be the biggest hurdle. And at the Nexus two years ago when you had all the larger food manufacturers there, you know, they can't segregate this stuff. No, they're too big. They cannot. Individuals. Yeah. Yes. They cannot do that. So how, somehow, and if you're too big of a producer, if you're a large feedlot producer for livestock, which probably wouldn't be Regenified anyway, but you need that. You're just producing commodities basically is what it amounts to. You're not producing in my mind nutrient-dense food. You're not producing the top quality that needs to be there for a premium price.

43:32 So I think there's a big hurdle there. And Jason actually had told me that in the industry, if they can buy—let's use his turkeys for example—if they can buy those turkeys, the person that they're dealing with at any specific company, if he can get, if that company can buy those turkeys for a dime less, that how the system is set up, that person that directly is dealing with him, he'll get a percentage of that savings. So it's—I'm gonna say it's all about money. I don't care if it's personal money or corporate money. It's all about money.

44:09 And I'm going to go off on the pharmaceutical end. That's—I've got some second cousins that, two young ladies, and I don't know if they're doing that yet or not, but they were flying all over the country selling pharmaceutical products and they were making big money. And all they were doing is selling to doctors. I don't know what the system is but they were working for these pharmaceutical companies and it's crazy the amount of margin in that stuff.

44:41 Yeah. So I mean, there, it isn't getting down to the actually the person that's—we all know it's not.

44:50 Getting back down to the farmer, let's just put it that way. We've got to hang on to that product longer. We have to do just an example for my beef. You know, I have nothing to hide and I tell people this, but by the time we slaughter beef or the beef price and the processing price, I can put total cost in your freezer either I'm going to say either side of $8 a pound. And that's for high choice to prime animal. Every time you go to that freezer, you're going to have quality meat in there. It's not like going to the store this week, you get a good piece, next week you don't. So, and that's direct. I mean, that's from my feed lot to the freezer, the customer's freezer. That's you know, some people say, 'Oh, that's too high.' Well, that's pretty cheap when you get into the city and you get different because it would be double that in there. It's only high if you're comparing it to, you know, like a cheap ground beef, but you got to look at quality.

45:52 That's the thing about, you know, what Regenifi and these other certification programs, the need to help you and me and everyone else do is, you know, to convince the consumer of the value of higher nutrient density. And I think hopefully we're only scratching the surface of that. And as new tools and new technology comes out to help consumers both identify and appreciate that higher quality food, you know, that was grown in a way that contributes to nutrient density that they'll be willing to pay for it. And I think they will if they understand what it is.

46:30 Well, what and you probably heard this too that with the SNAP program and that, you know, they want to pull pop out of there and some processed foods and like potato chips and Doritos and all that stuff. Some of these legislators haven't fit, you know, they don't think that that discriminates that family going to the grocery store and not being able to buy that. That discriminates against them and how are they going to feel going through the checkout line and all that. But the thing of it is it's the health thing. We've lost this whole health thing. People don't understand good food and bad food. I tell people going back to my livestock, my livestock eat healthier than I do because they don't eat processed foods. I eat processed foods now and there. They don't eat processed foods. They eat whole foods all the time. I mean, I process them by bailing them or chopping them, but I don't take ingredients out of those foods or those.

47:39 No, that's a great point. You know, so I just there needs to be a lot of education and in my mindset, the biggest hurdle regenerative farming has is actually everything that the farmer deals with. Every everything that the farmer buys from every everybody every business—I don't care if it's equipment, you know, all these equipment manufacturers that want to sell tillage, they want to sell products for the profitability. I understand that but they're the biggest culprit as far as tillage machines, the bigger tractors we have. You go into the seed industry, you go into even the pharmaceutical end, you know, when you start talking nutrient density and we can help you be healthy and then there's probably at least ten. And the next one is I don't think the bankers are on board with this because think about it. They I don't borrow near the amount of money I did years ago because I don't have to spend it on fertilizer. I don't have to spend it on all these other things. I have less equipment debt. I have all this other stuff because I don't have all this other stuff because I don't have it. So you don't need it. Yeah. It's a big movement. It truly is. I think there's more going to be more headwind in this than I think we realize. The concept is fantastic and I'm all on board for it and we just have to keep chiseling away and elbowing ahead, I think Keith. Yeah.

49:14 Well, Greg, you know, I I this

49:16 This conversation gives me hope and encouragement that more and more people can do this. And so folks, if you've been listening to this, we can help you out with if you want to interseed into corn. We've got quite a bit of experience with that. We'll be doing our corn interseeding experiments here at our green cover plots. You can come visit that during our summer field days. If you're interested in the regenerified program, you can reach out to those folks. You can find them online. I just did some webinars for them. Really good people that can help you down that path towards marketing your regeneratively grown products.

49:53 You know, part of the reason, Greg, I think that you're doing all these things is because you are an active learner. You go out and you research things and I really appreciate that because not everybody does that. You take the initiative to go out and learn new things and then implement them. Not always easy to do, but it's what makes it fun, right?

50:14 That's exactly right. I've had more fun farming the last years I've been doing this than my prior whole career. Yeah, just it's amazing. And the people, you know, your group and all the other people and all the programs, if you get into the mindset of these other people that are similar to you, it's phenomenal. It truly is.

50:35 Yeah, it really is. And Greg, you've mentioned a couple times the regenerative nexus summits. You know, Green Cover puts those on. We do one in Scottsdale. We do one in Omaha every year. So if you're interested in that, give us a call here at Green Cover. We'd be more than happy to talk to you about that. And by the time this airs, we'll already have been done with our Nicole Masters event, but we're having Nicole Masters come in for a couple days. So we really value education and we really value people like Greg who are willing to put the time into educating themselves. So Greg, any last thoughts? Any encouragement to people who are kind of on the edge and thinking about trying some of this? What encouragement could you give them to get them going?

51:19 Don't be afraid to try things. Everyone says start on a few acres or a lower scale. Try to hook up with someone that's been doing this. I get a lot of calls. I'm more than happy to help people if I can. There's a lot of good information out there and there's no sense in a new person trying to reinvent the wheel. You know, these people can take off years ahead of where I was at if they go talk to someone. I do not know all the answers and I think anyone will tell you that this year is going to be different than last year and it's going to be different than next year. Simple as that. But you have to keep plugging forward and the benefits that we've seen with soil health and the whole gamut of the livestock and everything is unbelievable in my mind. Just unbelievable.

52:10 Well, Greg, thank you so much for sharing your time and your expertise and the passion that clearly comes through. And thank you everyone for joining this episode of the Green Cover podcast. My brother and I started Green Cover in 2009 because we understand what it's like to be a farmer starting out on the journey to improve soil health. We saw the power of plant and biological diversity on our own farm here in Nebraska. But we found that it was difficult to get the right cover crop seed mix. We also learned that there was a big learning curve in successfully implementing cover crops. That's why we built Green Cover so that farmers like you can access the highest quality cover crop seed put into the right diverse mixes along with the technical advice and the educational resources to help you successfully implement cover crops on your own operation. So contact us today and we'll help you with the right cover crop mix for your farm or ranch so you can regenerate your portion of God's creation for future generations. Thanks.